I hate that it's controversial to say that a 13yo is a grown ass adult. The Jews got that right. People only made 18 a thing because of vote rigging at the time, and then they never undid it. We may actually see the reverse of that soon, people in power may give young people the vote if they think they'll vote the way they want...which would be a good thing for a duplicitous reason, but at least there would be a return to sanity in the west about what an adult is. Unfortunately many of those adults will be dumb as fuck and will vote for cucked laws, because I assume that like when I was a kid, 90% of the other kids are fucking retards. Unfortunate. But at least there may be enough chaos to drop the grid one day because of all the retardation and then the system won't be protecting the takers anymore. It'll be ugly but once the takers run out of raided supplies and die off only good people will be left. Just like the biblical flood.
@Jazzy_Butts Well a 13 year old is not fully grown, in either mental, physical, or sexual terms. Most European countries still make a legal distinction between under-13s (or under 14s) and 13 to 18 year olds with laws that grant adolescents some additional rights, but there is distinct trend towards 18+'ism.
@ezra Ok in the same way a 30 year old could be said not to be fully developed compared to a 60 year old, the average 13 year old can get pregnant (I'm not saying they should but they can), isn't that an adult?
@Jazzy_Butts
It's not, the reasons for this are twofold:
The primary sexual organs start functioning whilst still developing, around the middle of the process. In general this process starts around 8-11 for girls, and around 9-12 for boys, the process ends at around 16-18 for girls, and 18-20 for boys. Therefore, children who do not have fully developed sexual organs will have reproductive capability for several years before sexual maturity is achieved.
Secondly, sexual maturity is not directly linked to physical and mental maturity, girls stop growing physically at around 15, boys stop growing at around 21 (with some individual variation). Humans of both sexes reach mental maturity at around the age of 25.
Thus someone who is 25 years old is a fully developed adult, after this point there will be no further development. So a 30 year old and a 60 year old would be separated by experience (a psychological attribute) and possible physical degradation due to aging.
It's not, the reasons for this are twofold:
The primary sexual organs start functioning whilst still developing, around the middle of the process. In general this process starts around 8-11 for girls, and around 9-12 for boys, the process ends at around 16-18 for girls, and 18-20 for boys. Therefore, children who do not have fully developed sexual organs will have reproductive capability for several years before sexual maturity is achieved.
Secondly, sexual maturity is not directly linked to physical and mental maturity, girls stop growing physically at around 15, boys stop growing at around 21 (with some individual variation). Humans of both sexes reach mental maturity at around the age of 25.
Thus someone who is 25 years old is a fully developed adult, after this point there will be no further development. So a 30 year old and a 60 year old would be separated by experience (a psychological attribute) and possible physical degradation due to aging.
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@ezra Yup I agree with all that, I just don't know where the line should be, society has its laws and consensus but each individual person has their own fluid perception of what's right or wrong. Is it wrong for a 30 year old damaged hottie to be brainwashed and used as a slave by some rich old fuck? Is it right for a 25 year old to rescue his 14 year old fiance from a dungeon?
(cupronickel)
@ezra @Jazzy_Butts
> given the way the education system, relationships, and so on work for the typical person
i mean, those should change too, youth sexual liberation is inseparable from other forms of youth liberation
> given the way the education system, relationships, and so on work for the typical person
i mean, those should change too, youth sexual liberation is inseparable from other forms of youth liberation
@nep @Jazzy_Butts I'm not a youth liberation(ist) tho, I'm not even familiar with what that ideology is beyond what can be assumed from the name itself.
@ezra @Jazzy_Butts effectively that the concept of a "minor" (both legally and socially) should not exist (or be much lower) or have far less implications
for example: advocating for sudbury-like (voluntary and encouraging, rather than punitive) school systems
for example: advocating for sudbury-like (voluntary and encouraging, rather than punitive) school systems
@nep
Hm right, to clarify if you remove the concept of a minor, what impact would that have on things like loan agreements, employment contracts, mandatory school attendance, and the age of consent ?
Hm right, to clarify if you remove the concept of a minor, what impact would that have on things like loan agreements, employment contracts, mandatory school attendance, and the age of consent ?
@ezra the answer to that question is "how do those work for people currently considered adults?"
some (communists & co) would argue that the first two you mentioned shouldn't be structured how they are today regardless of being a minor or not, i have read very little about communism so i don't have a strong opinion on that, but it sounds reasonable enough
some (communists & co) would argue that the first two you mentioned shouldn't be structured how they are today regardless of being a minor or not, i have read very little about communism so i don't have a strong opinion on that, but it sounds reasonable enough
@nep uhhh right yes this is not very close to what I believe I think
@ezra for the sake of argument, let's assume a conservative stance of "12 year olds should have the same rights as 'adults' do now", i'd go lower but let's start simpler, what reasoning would you use against that?
@nep
Well ultimately it depends on the right, I'll outline some examples:
I think people under 13 shouldn't be liable for crimes they may commit because they are less likely to understand the implications.
I think people under 18 should have additional rights to privacy that adults can be assumed to not require, in the realms of advertising and public information.
I think people under 18 should not be liable to repay any money loaned to them, since it's unreasonable to expect young people to enter into usury type contracts.
I think that children have a right to education, so employment contracts for people at still at school should be limited in a way that prevents them interfering with the young person's education.
I think that children have the right to a family, or if that isn't possible, for all their care, housing, food, and income needs to be provided by the state, even where adults are not entitled to the same.
And so on.
Well ultimately it depends on the right, I'll outline some examples:
I think people under 13 shouldn't be liable for crimes they may commit because they are less likely to understand the implications.
I think people under 18 should have additional rights to privacy that adults can be assumed to not require, in the realms of advertising and public information.
I think people under 18 should not be liable to repay any money loaned to them, since it's unreasonable to expect young people to enter into usury type contracts.
I think that children have a right to education, so employment contracts for people at still at school should be limited in a way that prevents them interfering with the young person's education.
I think that children have the right to a family, or if that isn't possible, for all their care, housing, food, and income needs to be provided by the state, even where adults are not entitled to the same.
And so on.
@ezra
>I think people under 13 shouldn't be liable for crimes they may commit because *they are less likely to understand the implications.*
What makes you think that would be more the case than, say, an 18 year old and a 23 year old? (same age difference, different absolute numbers)
>I think people under 18 should have additional rights to privacy that adults can be assumed to not require, in the realms of advertising and public information.
>I think people under 18 should not be liable to repay any money loaned to them, since it's unreasonable to expect young people to enter into usury type contracts.
Why?
>I think that children have a right to education, so employment contracts for people at still at school should be limited in a way that prevents them interfering with the young person's education.
A right to education is different than being forced into education, any interference should be possible but voluntary. Why should that not be the case?
>I think that children have the right to a family, or if that isn't possible, for all their care, housing, food, and income needs to be provided by the state, even where adults are not entitled to the same.
Touché, though I'd still argue adults should be able to receive more assistance than they currently do.
>I think people under 13 shouldn't be liable for crimes they may commit because *they are less likely to understand the implications.*
What makes you think that would be more the case than, say, an 18 year old and a 23 year old? (same age difference, different absolute numbers)
>I think people under 18 should have additional rights to privacy that adults can be assumed to not require, in the realms of advertising and public information.
>I think people under 18 should not be liable to repay any money loaned to them, since it's unreasonable to expect young people to enter into usury type contracts.
Why?
>I think that children have a right to education, so employment contracts for people at still at school should be limited in a way that prevents them interfering with the young person's education.
A right to education is different than being forced into education, any interference should be possible but voluntary. Why should that not be the case?
>I think that children have the right to a family, or if that isn't possible, for all their care, housing, food, and income needs to be provided by the state, even where adults are not entitled to the same.
Touché, though I'd still argue adults should be able to receive more assistance than they currently do.
@nep
Well I think it's unreasonable to hold people liable for crimes before they even take civics classes and so on, most of what I outlined is related to predictable development of knowledge and understanding, we aren't born with a detailed understanding of the law, finance, contractual obligations and so on.
Regarding mandatory schooling, I'm a strong supporter of outlawing all the homeschooling and "unschooling" related loopholes, school attendance should be mandatory without an opportunity for anyone to opt-out (except for medical purposes like being hospitalised of course). This is connected to my own personal experiences and my perspective on fundamentalists, among other things.
Well I think it's unreasonable to hold people liable for crimes before they even take civics classes and so on, most of what I outlined is related to predictable development of knowledge and understanding, we aren't born with a detailed understanding of the law, finance, contractual obligations and so on.
Regarding mandatory schooling, I'm a strong supporter of outlawing all the homeschooling and "unschooling" related loopholes, school attendance should be mandatory without an opportunity for anyone to opt-out (except for medical purposes like being hospitalised of course). This is connected to my own personal experiences and my perspective on fundamentalists, among other things.
@ezra
>Well I think it's unreasonable to hold people liable for crimes before they even take civics classes and so on, most of what I outlined is related to predictable development of knowledge and understanding, we aren't born with a detailed understanding of the law, finance, contractual obligations and so on.
Many places don't even have such classes, yet they're doing just fine, formal education isn't the only form of education. I have not learned (read: reliably remembered after the exam I needed it for) a single thing at school since ~6th grade, life experience (which very quickly reaches diminishing returns at an acceptable level) and voluntary learning are enough for anything, if people aren't pushed into learned helplessness. The last part is especially important, as being told, both de jure (e.g. diploma requirements) and de facto (e.g. professional elitism), that the only way to learn something is by having it *taught* to you *causes* people to feel hopeless (which in turn can decrease someone's ability to do it).
>This is connected to my own personal experiences and my perspective
And what makes you believe your personal experience is representative of the world in any way? Relying on that would effectively mean everyone is right about everything they believe, someone's personal experience says very little about the world.
>Well I think it's unreasonable to hold people liable for crimes before they even take civics classes and so on, most of what I outlined is related to predictable development of knowledge and understanding, we aren't born with a detailed understanding of the law, finance, contractual obligations and so on.
Many places don't even have such classes, yet they're doing just fine, formal education isn't the only form of education. I have not learned (read: reliably remembered after the exam I needed it for) a single thing at school since ~6th grade, life experience (which very quickly reaches diminishing returns at an acceptable level) and voluntary learning are enough for anything, if people aren't pushed into learned helplessness. The last part is especially important, as being told, both de jure (e.g. diploma requirements) and de facto (e.g. professional elitism), that the only way to learn something is by having it *taught* to you *causes* people to feel hopeless (which in turn can decrease someone's ability to do it).
>This is connected to my own personal experiences and my perspective
And what makes you believe your personal experience is representative of the world in any way? Relying on that would effectively mean everyone is right about everything they believe, someone's personal experience says very little about the world.
@nep my personal experiences are what shape all my opinions on everything, there's nothing I believe that isn't based on something I saw or did or had happen to me in some way
@ezra Plato's cave seems pretty relevant in this case, personal experience only represents a specific kind of distortion of reality, to understand reality itself it's necessary to dig deeper (well, in that allegory it would be ascension instead, but colloquially people say dig deeper lol). And as I said, that has the implication that you then wouldn't be able to judge someone for *anything* they do, even if you find it extremely wrong (e.g. mass murder), if they would be following the same process you are (basing their beliefs on personal experience).
@nep I don't believe in a reality beyond my perception, methodological solipsism is closer to my views than Plato (I don't think I agree with Plato on much)
@nep @ezra @Jazzy_Butts
Imo, the biggest reasons youth liberation hasn't caught up yet are:
1) Unlike with other ideas like socialism, no one knows what youth-liberated society would look like. If in the near past socialist societies and community existed, then societies where youths had more freedom are too distant for others to remember, meaning that such a society is thought in an abstract (rather than concrete) way.
2) Consequential issues affecting young people (like voting, drinking, the AoC, getting a job, etc...) aren't taken seriously, and young people (i.e., legal minors) still need to conceptualise themselves as a subaltern that needs to liberate itself.
So while youth lib does have some potential, I think that it will take a very long time until something drastic occurs that favours youth liberationists.
Imo, the biggest reasons youth liberation hasn't caught up yet are:
1) Unlike with other ideas like socialism, no one knows what youth-liberated society would look like. If in the near past socialist societies and community existed, then societies where youths had more freedom are too distant for others to remember, meaning that such a society is thought in an abstract (rather than concrete) way.
2) Consequential issues affecting young people (like voting, drinking, the AoC, getting a job, etc...) aren't taken seriously, and young people (i.e., legal minors) still need to conceptualise themselves as a subaltern that needs to liberate itself.
So while youth lib does have some potential, I think that it will take a very long time until something drastic occurs that favours youth liberationists.
@Artaxerxes @ezra @Jazzy_Butts it's extremely hard (arguably impossible as far as we know) to make any long term predictions like that, even 50 year predictions are a big stretch, and considering how absurd mainstream age discourse has become, maybe it will collapse out of its own confusion
@Artaxerxes @nep @ezra @Jazzy_Butts
Re: #1. Ever go to Albania? I think there's a glimpse of what it can look like .
Also, I think old America had a certain amount of it, just because it was a chaotic society with lots of homeless and orphaned kids. I've previously given the example of the Newsie Strike to make the point that kids are smart and capable without adult supervision
Re: #1. Ever go to Albania? I think there's a glimpse of what it can look like .
Also, I think old America had a certain amount of it, just because it was a chaotic society with lots of homeless and orphaned kids. I've previously given the example of the Newsie Strike to make the point that kids are smart and capable without adult supervision
@Pinkpawn @Jazzy_Butts @ezra @nep
No, I don't know much about Albania apart from the fact that its history goes back to the 12th century, it was formerly a communist country, and alongside Bosnia is one of the only two Muslim majority countries entirely within Europe due to Ottoman policies (even though actual practicing Muslims are a very small minority).
I would like to hear more about it relation to youth lib. Do you have any resources that I can start with?
No, I don't know much about Albania apart from the fact that its history goes back to the 12th century, it was formerly a communist country, and alongside Bosnia is one of the only two Muslim majority countries entirely within Europe due to Ottoman policies (even though actual practicing Muslims are a very small minority).
I would like to hear more about it relation to youth lib. Do you have any resources that I can start with?
Well contemporary European society places the (average) age of consent at the age of female sexual maturity, and the age of adulthood at the age of male physical maturity. There's probably historical reasons related to marriage (for women) and entering the fully paid workforce (for men) attached to these otherwise fairly arbitrary age bracket choices.
But ultimately you have to put these limits somewhere, and the current places are as good as any given the way the education system, relationships, and so on work for the typical person.