@sim

Yes, I do mean exactly that.

Job reqs are almost universally written by someone who either doesn't know the job, or someone who is assuming the person who will send them candidates has no idea how to screen candidates.

@LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @nerdman @sim @fluffy
I asked for the job I am in twice. And the first time, they outright told me, that I acted weird.

So, I spend one year in bookshop "mastering the art of a good smile"... The second interview went smoothly as fuck.

@LukeAlmighty @sim @nerdman @leyonhjelm @fluffy I feel like everyone here has mastered the art of the scowl or of disinterest.

@Locksmith

Most people who can handle those can handle other signals when needed.

@LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman @sim

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @leyonhjelm @nerdman Need to master the elbow touch now.

@sim @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman
cc5eb43b966712110b23a2d47e0e24c9bef018bf1ea3f9f81595fe617a471a5c.png

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Yeah... doing this with someone was really bizarre. Makes more sense to just do nothing or shake hands and then wash them.

@sim

Personally I'd rather just shake hands and get exposed to viruses without worrying about it. I like to consistently challenge my immune system, I think that's vital to health.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Sometimes I wonder if that is vital to health. But you can't really escape them... in an ideal world there wouldn't be viruses attacking the immune system but that is unrealistic. Certainly, there are things I don't want to get to 'challenge my immune system'. Other things aren't too bad. Common cold doesn't seem too bad, for example. But catching something like the black death as a big historical example? No thanks.

@sim

People warned about this when the "social distancing" and masks started, but nobody took it seriously. I think it's entirely possible - even likely - that in extended absence of something to fight, the immune system stands down and increases vulnerability.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@fluffy @LukeAlmighty @sim @leyonhjelm @nerdman humans on a whole have been doing serious damage to our natural immune systems for sure over the past year.

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman To be honest, it's very hard for me to think that the immune system has been standing down during social distancing. Around the home, there are still so many things for it to fight even if you don't leave the house. I imagine you'd have to be really OCD for cleaning to prevent that. Or live on your own. Most people don't clean what they bring into the house. Also, a lot of the masks that people wear don't fit them right. I really don't think that is a concern.

@sim @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy
It's not about standing down as much as changing the things it is fighting.
Imune system is not one dimensional, but in case a mother never eats peanuts, kid has a higher chance of peanut alergy. That does not mean, the rest of his imunity system will be bad. It just means, it doesn't know how to react to something so new.

@LukeAlmighty @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy That's a good point, but then it may not overreact to something new. So it is hard to say what the right course is. Aside from, the option that doesn't get you killed and that changes for different factors.

@sim

I haven't seen much indication that there's an overall advantage to delaying exposure in any way. If anything, it seems detrimental overall due to the ways people go about avoiding exposure being unhealthy as a whole.

@LukeAlmighty @Locksmith @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Depends on your health, right? I'm not going to tell someone who is obese or has other underlying health conditions that impact the immune system that there is an advantage for them to be exposed to this sooner than they have to be.

@sim

Doesn't depend at all. If they are going to put themselves on hold indefinitely out of fear, the whole thing is pointless.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Well, I would hope the obese person would lose weight although this doesn't seem to be motivation enough for a lot of people. As for other conditions, that is a bit difficult. If someone has an immune problem, they probably were social distancing to begin with before all of this.

@sim

I don't see that happening when every avoidance measure encourages a sedentary lifestyle.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Well, over here we were encouraged to go out for a walk still. I would say that it matters more what people put into their mouths and that has been a difficult one.

@sim

Making it more difficult to visit the market has not helped with that at all.

During the voluntary 14 days initially, we lived off what we had and made do without a lot of fresh foods because if that was going to work, we were willing to do it voluntarily. It was not nearly as healthful as simply going about my business would have been.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Yeah. Honestly, I just got the impression that we went into a lockdown too late. This virus is basically another virus that is here to stay because it wasn't stopped in china where it began. And not having fresh foods doesn't help.

@sim

I don't believe this can be stopped by anything except letting it run its course. Everything being done to stop or slow it is counterproductive.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@fluffy @nerdman @sim @leyonhjelm @LukeAlmighty I’m thinking more about the over-sanitization going on. And the general reduction of going out into the world.

@sim

The masks are horseshit, but the shit people rebreathe because of them is like attacking a fortress the same way over and over. Sooner or later, the guards stop looking for other attacks because they're just not coming. When one does, defenses collapse.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@nerdman @LukeAlmighty @leyonhjelm @fluffy @sim I think it’s a good filter personally. If they don’t wanna shake hands, I don’t wanna work with em.

@Locksmith

Yes, this. There are a lot of jobs that I've avoided or only begrudgingly accepted due to circumstances due to red flags during the hiring process. This has always borne out as the correct instinct..

@sim @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@Locksmith @leyonhjelm @nerdman @sim @fluffy
Even better question. Do you want to risk being awkward at job interview? If you catch something, but get the job, you will be sick for money, but if it spared you of sickness, but didn't get the job, are you realy better off?

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @leyonhjelm @nerdman Why would anyone want to shake hands with someone else? It's just a formality.

@LukeAlmighty @nerdman @leyonhjelm @sim @fluffy it’s not a specific want, it’s like you said, a formality. And if someone can’t perform that basic formality, I don’t wanna work with em.

@sim @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy
It is not "just a formality".

That is a HUGE trap noone is talking about. A proper touch is one of evolutionary signs of friendlyness. You do not casually touch a predator and a predator never casually touches a pray. (At least not when hungry)

Our brains are chemical machines, that do react to a ton of different things, and touch is a powerful signal. A true proof of trust.

That is why modern society is falling apart BTW. We deconstructed social norms to such a point, we don't know what we are even communicating to our brains anymore.

@leyonhjelm @fluffy @nerdman @LukeAlmighty @sim looking at it from this angle, I would assume like 70% of them are just hungry :p

@Locksmith

I like lunches with a work team as a primary form of team building when possible. And not discussing work during that lunch.

@LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman @sim

@LukeAlmighty

I firmly believe touch is vital to well-being.
I also think hugs are vital to a healthy human, but that people have been starved of this for a long time thanks to artificial barriers to this normal part of human interaction in society.

@sim @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy

@LukeAlmighty @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy Yeah, I sort of realised a while back that it does display that you are a friend. That you can use body language in this way. Tricking the brain. Probably partly why I don't just want to go around touching people or have them touch me, even as a formality. It is dishonest, just what is expected of people without the commitment to actually being friendly with them.

@sim

If they are dishonest in their handshake there is usually plenty to warn you about them in the rest of the process. And possibly during the handshake, there's a lot you can read about a person during a handshake.

@LukeAlmighty @Locksmith @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Maybe I just need to learn how to master the handshake and figure out what the different handshakes mean. I just know that if my hand is being crushed, that's probably more of a challenge.

@sim @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy
No, that means you are still not comfortable with other humans around you. (a newbie mistake.)

@LukeAlmighty @leyonhjelm @Locksmith @nerdman @fluffy Well, I can't argue with that assessment. I generally don't like being around people and I don't see that changing.

@sim

There's a lot of nuance. I grew up in a church with a lot of handshaking so I understand a lot of it on an instinctual level at this point.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Yeah, in something like a church with a small community, I'd probably be okay with shaking hands since you actually get to know people and become more community-minded. Would you say you had that growing up?

@sim

I would. It also taught me ways to counter the crushing grips you mentioned, but I cannot explain them verbally. In some ways I think that is a test of its own for some people.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman Yeah, maybe seeing how you'll react to it.

@sim

Or whether you know the counter, which would indicate being part of a handshake culture

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@leyonhjelm @Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman I have to admit, it would be handy to know this... although maybe I know it but just don't realise it.

@sim

If you knew it, you'd know.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@fluffy @leyonhjelm @sim @nerdman @LukeAlmighty they don’t have to be a friend like you are going to be drinking buddies now or anything, it’s more like a recognition of non-hostility and more importantly, cooperation.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @leyonhjelm @nerdman Yeah, that is sort of more how I meant it. But using the term friend as opposed to a foe which is the opposite.

@sim

The formality is a demonstration of an understanding. People worth working for understand these simple protocols are an assurance to each other. Some may not hold up their bargain, but the ones that won't even offer the handshake are bad news.

Neal Stephenson wrote in Cryptonomicon:

“This "sir, yes sir" business, which would probably sound like horseshit to any civilian in his right mind, makes sense to Shaftoe and to the officers in a deep and important way. Like a lot of others, Shaftoe had trouble with military etiquette at first. He soaked up quite a bit of it growing up in a military family, but living the life was a different matter. Having now experienced all the phases of military existence except for the terminal ones (violent death, court-martial, retirement), he has come to understand the culture for what it is: a system of etiquette within which it becomes possible for groups of men to live together for years, travel to the ends of the earth, and do all kinds of incredibly weird shit without killing each other or completely losing their minds in the process. The extreme formality with which he addresses these officers carries an important subtext: your problem, sir, is deciding what you want me to do, and my problem, sir, is doing it. My gung-ho posture says that once you give the order I'm not going to bother you with any of the details--and your half of the bargain is you had better stay on your side of the line, sir, and not bother me with any of the chickenshit politics that you have to deal with for a living. The implied responsibility placed upon the officer's shoulders by the subordinate's unhesitating willingness to follow orders is a withering burden to any officer with half a brain, and Shaftoe has more than once seen seasoned noncoms reduce green lieutenants to quivering blobs simply by standing before them and agreeing, cheerfully, to carry out their orders.”

It may not be military protocol involved, but this gives an idea of how working etiquette has implications beyond just the action itself.
Shaking hands with a firm grip and a confident eye is an indication to them that you're going to play with the team and get your stuff done and that you expect them to do theirs.

Whether they're honest enough to hold up their end of the bargain has other ways of being ascertained, but if this isn't present it's a bad sign.

@Locksmith @LukeAlmighty @fluffy @nerdman

@sim @fluffy @LukeAlmighty @nerdman @leyonhjelm fuck. That.