I do admire the government. I mean, say whatever you want, but brainwashing entire nation into believing that not paying the taxes to the government that doesn't do what you pay them to do isn't an option to be considered....
@ThatCrazyDude It's less brainwashing than straight up threat of property seizure at gunpoint, imprisonment, or even death (they didn't buy all those fancy firearms for no reason) for non-compliance. I often wonder what would happen if the entire country at once refused to pay. Would taxation become unenforceable? And how could you evade the withholding being stolen straight out of your check if you are an employee?
I often wonder what would happen if the entire country at once refused to pay.
Collapse of the police system, then lynching of most business owners after the first economic crisis and mass firings, followed by lolberts crying for the state to save them because animals or something
@moffintosh @Vox @ThatCrazyDude
That kind of a scenario is pointless.
If it would include cops and army refusing to enforce, then the inevitable death of politicians would cause much more.
If it didn't include the breakdown of enforcement, then people would start paying after a few examples being set.
And if politicians were still protected, and cops refused to enforce only taxes, then politicians would cover everything in inflation alone.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox I don't think that in this purely hypothetical scenario the law enforcement or even the state military would do a jack squat even if the top brass wanted to. I mean, think about it. How many soldiers and cops do you have very 1,000 if general population.The traditional military doctrine is that you need at the very least 25 combat personnel per 1000 occupied population to just survive.And that's not counting all the logistics personnel and shit,which is x4 minimum
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox and on top of that, if you're trying to effectively occupy your own country that's rebelling, you gotta take into account that probably not everyone in your fighting force will be cool shooting his relative, friend or a neighbor.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
So, you are no longer talking about taxes.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox well, no. The discussion sort of drifted sideways 🤣
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
No, your initial premise includes open armed revolution.
Your initial premise is not about taxes.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox you might want to go to the top of the thread.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
> noagendasocial
Oh, I get it now.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox I'm fairly confident you don't get it. But that's fine. I don't have high expectations. I'll just spell it out for you, since you clearly need it: if the nation were to collectively say no to taxes, because they're not getting what they're paying for or whatever, there would be no armed conflict, because no single cop nor a military commander with like 5 working neurons would even consider the possibility they can win.
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox
if the nation were to collectively say no to taxes
Then I'm told commies are utopian, but go on
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox and you can only process 10 words at a time? Putting it in the context in the entire conversation is really that big of an ask? C'mon, lad. My wife's parrots can do better than that
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox
I don't think that in this purely hypothetical scenario the law enforcement or even the state military would do a jack squat even if the top brass wanted to.
If this hypotetical is anywhere near what you expect, then I've seen anarcokiddies with more realistic plans. If this is not what you really expect, spell it out, precisely.
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox seriously, lad, how old are you? I mean, how dumb do you need to be to read this thread and even consider that I think something like this can happen?
Let me do some spelling out. Again. There's not enough retards in the military and the law enforcement for that to be a viable option. You can join to improve the odds though.
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox
If this is not what you really expect, spell it out, precisely.
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox holy shit! You can copy and paste! I clearly underestimated you. My apologies
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox When you stop running away, you know my handle
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox yeah. Also, move like water. Can be sewer water, I suppose, so you're not left out.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
Btw, do you support seniors being payed a pension?
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
So, people unable to work would be fucked?
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox people who had the possibility to invest in their future but chose not to would be fucked. Being adult is all about taking responsibility. Or am I wrong?
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
I am asking about people who never had an option to work
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
A guy, who studied for manual labor loses sight at the age of 25.
Do you let that guy starve? He didn't save up.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox you know what insurance is, I presume....
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
Yes.
It is a gambling scheme. You bet money on something bad happening to you. If something happens, and you didn't bet on that month, you're fucked.
And, if you make this bet mandatory, it's called... a tax.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox not in Europe it isn't. If you're employed, youur employer pays your insurance on top of the taxes and employment costs. Healthcare and retirement isn't covered by state taxes. Not anymore, that is.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
So, you would be ok with no person paying taxes, as long as every corporation pays government 40 percent of everyones income?
Man... Did you know your parents didn't actually disappear when the hands moved in front of their face?
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox I never said that, and frankly I don't know where did you even get the idea. All I'm saying is that if you're being taxed, you're essentially paying for a service, and if the service isn't being rendered, which sadly it rarely is, you should at the very least be questioning the wisdom of continuing your payments.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
If your original post was:
What if everyone questioned the morality of taxes, while most people continued to pay anyway, then this would be a different discussion though.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox so now we're going to argue semantics? C'mon
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox No, both healthcare and pensions are handled by the state in at least italy and france
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox Maybe my admin can answer for the nordics? cc: @thor
@moffintosh @ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox there isn't one system for all of Europe when it comes to this stuff.
in the case of Norway, a part of your taxes pays for a national health insurance scheme. hospital admissions are free but for other things, there is a copay.
it's not identical for the different Scandinavian countries either. in Denmark, seeing a GP is free, for example.
in Germany, i believe they have a private insurance scheme, but i don't know the details.
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox I happen to be living in Italy and I kinda gotta call bullshit on that. It is true that the government, as in public coffers will give you some cash if you don't have your own retirement plan. But that's pennies. The last time I've checked it was 450 a month, which isn't even enough to pay your bills, even if you're really saving
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox Allora perché hai detto che la sanità non è coperta dal SSN?
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox perché effettivamente non è coperta.
Ok.... Diciamo che lo stato ti coprera tutto, ma solo se puoi aspettare più di un anno per una radiografia....
La verità e che se non paghi, non avrai un cazzo nel tempi accettabili
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox Dipende molto dalla regione quello. In Romagna di sti problemi se ne sono avuti solo durante il covid.
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox forze si. Ma in Lazio dove abito io e come è.
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @LukeAlmighty
Also, if this thread would go back to English, I would be grateful...
@Vox @moffintosh @LukeAlmighty hear hear! I do kind of speak Italian but it's my third language, so.... 🤣
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox Poi quello che hai detto sulle pensioni non è corretto per niente. A parte che la pensione minima è di 500 euri, in italia c'è un sistema contributivo, quindi la pensione dipende strettamente dallo stipendio che avevi quando eri impiegato
@moffintosh @LukeAlmighty @Vox vabè. Anche se sarebbe €1000. Se sei un anziano che spende 500 per le medicine ogni mese, paghi minimo di 100 do condominio, più bollette e tutto.... Auguri
@ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty @Vox If what you plan is a general strike against taxes, it might be less insane than a permanent refusal to pay them. However, any modern goverment can function for a long time without taxation, and you haven't solved the police issue, nor have provided a good reason or example as to why workers & business owners would work together.
Not only that, but as I've explained before states have always been at the dependencies of a class, which is futher proofed by just looking at lobbying money and international trade relations.
@moffintosh @ThatCrazyDude @LukeAlmighty OK, I was the one who proposed that employers and employees would have a common enemy in the taxing entity. I said that because I think in terms of small businesses where more often than not, the owners and the employees are friends, or at least working toward a common goal. The theory may fall apart at the level of huge multinational corporations, but I have zero experience with that. Mostly, I work with people I generally like, whether boss or worker.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox the way i see it, if they had no option to work, the society should support them. That being said though, I have yet to meet a person that had no option to work. And I grew up in Poland in the early 80's, which wasn't exactly economic bonanza, so there's that
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
But what if everyone decided to not pay taxes?
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox then in a week tops you'd have negotiations and a week later you'd have an agreement hammered down, because them ducks up top do want their cash
@ThatCrazyDude @moffintosh @Vox
In other words, if everyone refused to pay taxes, everyone would agree to pay taxes 2 weeks later. 
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox if everyone would agree to pay taxes online if the government that's being paid does what's it's being paid to do, yes.
@LukeAlmighty @moffintosh @Vox absolutely. To a certain point though. If they did have the option to invest in retirement fund and they chose not to, then no. But those who didn't have that option, hell yeah. They worked for it