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@AstolfoCockVore "let's take (insert favorite franchise) and make (insert male hero) into a bitter run down old man past his prime!"
ITS JUST SO SUBVERSIVE GUYS 
ITS JUST SO SUBVERSIVE GUYS
@AstolfoCockVore ok but what? There's nothing wrong with taking that route if you do it right (even if it's being abused to high hell now). The problem is so many movies shows and games basically just deconstruct a character for the sake of "being subversive" and replace it with utter garbage. You can't just "subvert" whatever you're putting in its place needs to be worth a damn.
Tlou2 subverted expectation by turning Joel into an idiot caving his skull in and then making the most bloated pointless revenge bad story you could think of. Joel's death isn't the problem the problem is that the entire story we got after it was dog shit. They could have killed Joel 2 hours in and made something worthwhile with it. But they didn't. The game had less depth than the original because it reconned the fuck out of the fireflies to make Joel's decision inarguably bad. He killed important zebra saving doctors that woulda cured the world with Ellie (who would have totally been fine with being butchered on the table actually)
Tlou2 subverted expectation by turning Joel into an idiot caving his skull in and then making the most bloated pointless revenge bad story you could think of. Joel's death isn't the problem the problem is that the entire story we got after it was dog shit. They could have killed Joel 2 hours in and made something worthwhile with it. But they didn't. The game had less depth than the original because it reconned the fuck out of the fireflies to make Joel's decision inarguably bad. He killed important zebra saving doctors that woulda cured the world with Ellie (who would have totally been fine with being butchered on the table actually)
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@Minty @AstolfoCockVore tlou2 felt like it was written and inserted into the game into the wrong order. it would have been way better (though still 100% unwarranted) if you played abby for the majority of the game and had her character build to a point where you actually did like her, and then were faced with the decision to kill joel which would make you feel so much more conflicted about it.
instead the game's message falls completely flat because the "revenge bad" story makes sure that the person who originally sought revenge wins in the end anyway, and you absolutely fucking hate her for it. one of the worst blunders of story writing i've ever seen, to be totally honest.
