@applejack They lost and gilded era was pretty dope afaik

@matrix So was fascism, and in that sense libertarian capitalism also lost (nobody uses it)

@applejack That's not what meme implies.
Yeah, technically, but it lived long enough and offered enough benefits that it transformed while the others outright failed.

@matrix Yes, it is. Hitler transformed Germany from a beaten and abused laughingstock to a world power that the rest of Europe had to gang up to fight, he took international finance and kicked it out, he took mother-daugher strip and crossdressing shows and removed them, he gave people jobs and families support

War obviously didn't make it great but it was as good as it could have been

This should be pretty obvious. A powerful leader that genuinely cares about his country will almost always do more good than any other system can

Though Iðll admit his economics weren't the best. Better than what we have but not Austrian (heh) enough

Anyway, the meme is just that commies look at the СССР and say "that's not communism", libleft looks at catalonia and says "that wasn't real anarchism", libright looks at banana republics or standard oil or the industrial revolution and says "that wasn't real libertarianism", while Nazis look at Nazi Germany and go "yes, I want that"

@applejack Hitler basically did the same what commies in Russia and China did, we just haven't seen it properly crumble because he went to war instead.
Well the industrial revolution wasn't libertarian but liberal.

@matrix They did rapid industrialisation by actually making their people worse off. It's admitted to of Germans being well off before the war and in the early stages of it, only some light rationing. Nobody talks well about the Russian or Chinese transition, and they didnt get the same economic gains

There's a reason Hitler was elected and popular while the commies killed the tsar and put themselves in charge after a civil war

@matrix *and they didnt get the same social gains

@applejack They started basically from rock bottom while Germany didn't so they could be as well off, but they did get better like better education and higher GDP.

@applejack @matrix the commies didn’t kill the tsar. Or rather, they killed him more than a year after he denounced his tsardom and buggered off.

What the commies went to war against was the short lived russian liberal republic. It only existed for like two months before the civil war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Republic

> Failed?

I have to ask the same question lol. The number of people risking their lives to flee from one country to another is usually measured by how socialist the one they're fleeing from is and how much market economics there is in the one they're fleeing too.

Market economics works. It produces a lot of wealth, gives people a lot of self determination and is very effective at curbing corruption. The only way left to argue about it is to point to the corruption caused by whatever government intervention does exist in those countries and pretend it's related to market forces somehow.

We don't need a perfect ancapistan to know that market economics are better, the closer anyone gets to one the better life gets for them. Even somalia improved when they ditched socialism.

Now obviously the ability to produce things isn't the only important factor in determining a society's success, but it is an important one for it's survival.

@Eiregoat @matrix Sure, but point of the meme is that people point at banana republics and then libertarians say "not real" while people point right wingers to Nazi Germany and we say ""

Well if they're pointing to banana republics then... yes? I'd say it's justified to say "not real." After all it wouldn't be fair of me to point to just any failed regime and call it top-right.

You're correct that no pure bottom right examples exist, but then no pure top right exists either. The third reich had at least some market economics and some anti-authoritarianism.

If you really want an example I'd say revolutionary america. Not perfect, but it approaches bottom right about as much as the third reich approaches top right.

@Eiregoat @matrix It's doesn't have anything to do with it being legitimate,

I mean... if I'm allowed to point to illegitimate examples then fine.

"The Khmer Rouge prove that top right doesn't work."

"But that wasn't real fascism."

-smirk-

It's kind of pointless.

@Eiregoat @matrix But people don't do that, when people want to do it to right wingers it's 100% of the time Nazi Germany, that's the point of it

If the meme is just "people have to pick disingenous examples to make bottom right look in any way bad." Then ok, but kind of a strange thing to be smug about.

@Eiregoat @matrix The first memes were literally this before they turned into a "Me good you bad" template

"You are X!" - "Yes."

Your ideology will end up like the СССР - NO! It wasn't a classless, moneyless society!

Your ideology will end up like Revolutionary Catalonia - What, no! That doesn't count!

Your ideology will end up like Banana Republics - No, there was a government somewhere so it's invalid…

Your ideology will end up like Nazi Germany - Yes

Well if we're taking examples at their point of collapse we're left with...

I don't see much to be smug about there.

@Eiregoat @matrix What's the point? It's about what kind of society you want, not whether your cities are capable of being bombed during a war. I don't even get how this is supposed to be related in your head

"US are failed because 9/11 haha"

I agree. It's stupid to give examples of societies after they've already collapsed and failed. So why are you giving examples of countries where a government overthrew the market economy?

Honestly banana republics are a really weird example, I've never heard anyone call them bottom right before.

@Eiregoat @matrix I didn't make the meme, bro. I don't point to banana republics to shoo away libertarians, people do

You're the first one I've met who's mentioned them lol.

As for "it's just a meme," ... well, why defend it so hard then?

@Eiregoat @matrix Kinda, they usually mention robber barons or Standard Oil or even just modern monopolies first, but banana republics are definitely one that people bring up. I used to be an ancap, I know this. In another branch of the thread I mentioned that first with Matrix, but went with BRs here since it's a bit more concrete example

I'm addressing what's replied to me. Should I just stop replying?

I've seen those a lot for sure, banana republics is new to me.

Anyhow the meme is wrong so I stomped on it for a while :P