@nerdman @matrix the lack of tolerance for disease was because the Indians didn't have any cities churning sludge and waste for hundreds of years getting people sick (see: Cholera in London). Euros caught on pretty quickly, maybe not the first few years, but certainly within 100

@merchantHelios @nerdman @matrix the stone age tribes of the Americas didn't have basic hygiene unlike White people, so there's that

@eee @matrix @nerdman Fair, though it did take the Europeans several hundred years of dying to diseases caused by uncleanliness, like cholera, to develop those practices to begin with

@merchantHelios @nerdman @matrix my understanding was that their lack of immunity had more to do with the lack of domesticatable animals in the americas

@JSDorn that's moreso why they didn't develop cities to begin with, but by extention yes
@matrix @nerdman

@JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios

Very plausible! Mind you, even today you can domesticate llamas. And they had dogs too.

NOTE: apparently no native american dogs remain today, they've been replaced by european descended ones. Source: some youtube video so take this with a lethal amount of salt.

@nerdman @matrix @merchantHelios I knew about llamas but not about dogs. Very interesting.

@JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios

Yeah, when the proto-esqumos crossed the Bering straight they brought puppers.

@JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios

> inb4 amerindians sucked because they had no cats.

@nerdman @matrix @merchantHelios as one does

@nerdman @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios Keep in mind, the current eskimos arrived 1000 years ago, and exterminated a previous and unrelated population the preceded them.

@JSDorn @merchantHelios @matrix @nerdman bison was pretty similar to archaic cows. They just didn’t domesticate them.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman good fucking luck domestication bison

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman I believe we currently are. I can buy Bison meat at the grocery store.

@Victor_Emmanuel @merchantHelios @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman you can tame em vis a vis making them more or less ok being around people but its implausible to domesticate them for the same reasons as the moose

@nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman what do you think domestication means?

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman when you deliberately or accidentally breed a wild animal into an animal fit to some sort of purpose, to be naturally disposed to being around humans, and to have a symbiotic relationship with humans vis a vis that purpose

whereas taming is when you raise it and its ok being around you

@nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman ok what makes you think Bison, or any animal for that matter, is immune to the effects of artificial selection.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman it isnt
its just extremely difficult and time consuming to change the bison because its hard to control their breeding and movement
same as the soviet moose domestication experiments -- you can basically set up a feeding area where females can come and eat and shelter but when its time to breed they will leave and theres no way to keep them in a controlled environment and not have them freak out and not breed or kill their babies

@nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman we still have to break horses today yet they are considered domesticated.

@nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman don’t forget we were able to domesticate wolves.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman its a bit of a stilted definition but the point is domestication is you shape the animal to fit man whereas taming is when you make a wild animal ok with man

@nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman so taming would be the first step in domestication then.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman yup
and the crew would have to migrate with the herd

@Victor_Emmanuel @nugger @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman I take if you're not aware of how wild bison are, even in captivity. Their instincts haven't been bred out of them like cattle.

@Tripp @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman @nugger yea because we have had the same amount of time with them as we did with cows.

@Victor_Emmanuel @Tripp @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman you'd prolly need a nomadic tribe to live among them for a while and cull the herd to promote only the males that are the most "tame" for generations
its a project for after collapse of industrial society tbh

@nugger @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman so the natives could have done it but chose not to.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman there was a lot of shit that chugs eschewed in favor of blood sacrifice and tribal warfare

the problem with following a stampede is that its fast and lasts a long while
theyd need horses which they wiped out prior and maybe even that wouldnt be enough
and on the prairie theres no fuckin wood to speak of to build an enclosure, much less one that can hold buffalo
so they stayed in place and farmed squash beans and corn and buffalo was an occasional treat when a herd went by

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman but with a car you can go anywhere

@nugger @matrix @nerdman @JSDorn @Tripp @Victor_Emmanuel @merchantHelios You can't cross the sea.

@Victor_Emmanuel @nugger @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman i dont actually think this is the case at all - they domesticated horses, why not bison? because it was really fucking difficult if you were motivated to begin with, and they werent motivated. Humans all over the planet domesticated whatever animals they practically could, when they could. The point you brought up about wolves actually is very cogent - wolves are domesticated because (like horses) they have a family and hierarchical structure. Replace the top animal with yourself and you're well on your way to taming and then domestication generations down the line. This is not the case with either cows or bison, you never would hear the phrase "alpha bull" for a reason. heres a study from the american journal of dairy science (for whatever quality you give that) on cow family structure - namely the lack thereof.
journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(68)86977-2/pdf
As for bison they are the same, but much larger - see pic related. Slower technological development, nomadic lifestyle, possibly religion, and lack of outside pressures on top of that are why the bison wasnt domesticated. If you REALLY want to push this for whatever reason, presumably to say that bison were domesticatable before, just that the indians were too inferior to actually do it, by all means continue. I dont think that's an accurate assessment though

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger pic related, really showing my iq forgetting it

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger Ok so if Cows lack family structure then clearly family structure is not necessary for domestication. It probably will make it easier but that's not what I care about. The point I am making is that the natives could of had a civilization if they wanted one. They chose not to.

@Victor_Emmanuel @matrix @nerdman @JSDorn @Tripp @merchantHelios @nugger

*could've

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger no but it makes it significantly easier. everything ive said was in defense of "bison wouldve been next to impossible to domesticate considering the circumstances the native americans lived in." you never even mentioned "they couldve had a civilization" until now - unless it was in a reply i missed or wasnt tagged in. Thats an entirely different discussion, one where I would probably agree with you. If we're talking about hypothetical histories I think the Japanese wouldve made a fantastic vassal state out of China if given the chance but never developed a sufficient navy to do so until WW2. That doesnt mean it couldnt have happened earlier, just that it wouldve been significantly more difficult.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger correction: navy AND given actual reason and motivation

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger I thought we were working under the assumption that domesticated animals are necessary for civilization. And again you have yet to explain how bison are radically different from archaic cows.

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger I want you to tell me if this sounds radically different than a Bison:
"These are a little below the elephant in size, and of the appearance, color, and shape of a bull. Their strength and speed are extraordinary; they spare neither man nor wild beast which they have espied.

These the Germans take with much pains in pits and kill them[…]those who have slain the greatest number of them, having produced the horns in public, to serve as evidence, receive great praise." -Julius Caesar on the aurochs (archaic cow)
It should be noted that Caesar is probably talking about the North African Elephant which is smaller than the Sub-Saharan variety.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @Tripp @matrix @nerdman @nugger necessary for sedentary civilization. as for the differences they arent much at all, bison and cows have common ancestors which are blindly similar. the difference is in the people and motivation, namely nomadic vs sedentary/agricultural lifestyles.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman @nugger Suffice to say the bison herds that fill markets with meat are practically wild animals the moment you remove the fences that keep them in place.

Also wild game kept for farming purposes per-se tend to develop some rather nasty diseases, Deer get CWD, Elk and the aforementioned Bison are exceptionally susceptible to TB.

@Tripp @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman @nugger I want you to tell me if this sounds radically different than a Bison:
"These are a little below the elephant in size, and of the appearance, color, and shape of a bull. Their strength and speed are extraordinary; they spare neither man nor wild beast which they have espied.

These the Germans take with much pains in pits and kill them[…]those who have slain the greatest number of them, having produced the horns in public, to serve as evidence, receive great praise." -Julius Caesar on the aurochs (archaic cow)
It should be noted that Caesar is probably talking about the North African Elephant which is smaller than the Sub-Saharan variety.

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @merchantHelios @nerdman @nugger Aurochs aren't Bison though. Bison existed at the same time as the Auroch.

@Tripp @Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman @nugger correct but for his admittedly more simple purposes its similar enough to not matter

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman I should've clarified since it wasn't obvious. Good fucking luck domestication bison as a nomadic tribe, with primitive tools at best, in the 1000s. Much more effort for the north American Indians that it was worth. South America you could domesticate Llamas, but they still aren't even close to bison in terms of meat and strength produced

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman European were able to domesticate cows, what makes you think Bison are such a great deal more difficult?

@Victor_Emmanuel @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman have you ever seen a bison? hell, have you seen a herd of thousands of bison moving at once? It's always "how hard could it possibly be?" until you actually try and do these things in reality.

@merchantHelios @JSDorn @matrix @nerdman have you ever seen a cow before they were domesticated? Or do think they just existed in nature that docile?

@merchantHelios @matrix

Actually Tenochtitlan was bigger than all european cities. And it was built on a swamp. Lots of mosquitoes I'd wager.

@nerdman @merchantHelios @matrix I sustain the motion but not in the sense of holding poo :-(

@wikifarms @matrix @merchantHelios

I don't follow. And I'm not sure I want to follow.