🇳🇱
Just a reminder, being a horrible person shoukdnt be tolerated simply because they claim their religion says so.... **YOU** choose one of any number of interpritations of your religion that caused you to be a horrible person. Thats not your religions fault, thats just you finding an excuse to be a shit human. No one needs to tolerate you being a shit human just because your a religious shit human.
That is all...
@freemo I find the multiple interpretations or treating religion as a buffet argument often quite insincere and intellectually dishonest.
You call yourself a believer of a religion. The religion has some scripture and some history.
Those say that believers should act certain way, say certain things, perform certain rituals to appease their deity. But you do absolutely none of that. At that point what makes you any different from an unbeliever who acts the same way you do?
Yes there are different interpretations, a lot of parts of religion are intentionally vague so that they can't be proven false. There are things lost in translation. But rarely are those direct negations.
Yes you can have a discussion on if various food rules etc make sense to uphold if they were made to prevent disease and we now know how to do it better, but that's not the case with social or political stuff, humans haven't changed.
If I write a book and call it Scripture 2.0 and just negate the original belief, I didn't make a new interpretation, I'm just wrong.
@freemo
1) This is objectively false interpretation as all translations of Leviticus 19 start with some version of "God said to Moses: "
2) Sure, but at that point you are doing several layer deep schizophrenic pattern seeking.
3) Yes that would be the most logical interpretation
4) Yeah the new testament redcons the old one but here you have a distinct 2 faiths, not two interpretations of the same faith.
@matrix to point 1, ill doubke check but almost certain that is ot thr case here
2, just because it has multiple levels doesnt make it i correct given the canon
4. Saying "distinct faiths" , particularly when based off the same source material, is just a fancy way if saying you have multiple interpritations.
@freemo They don't share the same source material, only a part. Christianity added its own canon which built on top of and retconned Judaism, which imo makes it a new distinct category rather than just an interpretation. An interpretation is just "what did the author actually mean", it doesn't extend the canon.
@matrix Yes this is true.. ultimately if you change either the canon or the interpritation it is considered a different religion.
Also, the responsibility for actions one takes belongs to the one acting. We can discuss how they were trapped by their place of birth & their society or religion or whatever but the responsibility is theirs. Any other mental framework does not work out one way or another.
Well no. Most religions are divided into many different interpritations, each group that exists is sometimes very popular sometines not. You have christianity, which is a faith based on thr bible, thrn you have thousands of interpritations, some are popular enough to have names, some arent. Juat because sometimes people choose the same interpritation doesnt meant its suddenly has some official status.
Catholic and orthodox christians are separate and "official". Personal interpretations are not the same as those.
it's not just a dude on the road screaming the end is near, it's millions of people
So its an interpritation that enough people share that someone gave it a name... still an interpritation and aside from being a popular interpritation it is nothing special.. all religions are just interpritations of some set of canon texts, in some cases it is one person, in others its many people, but its all the same thing.
That was that religion is no excuse for being an asshole. I think we agree on that
But numbers do count. Being practical, when it's a dude's interpretation being criticized nobody cares. if it's a million dudes' interpretation you can find yourself cheek to cheek with a suicide bomber with bad teeth smiling at you while pulling a cord.
Also, the fact that an asshole is religious and attributes his actions to his religion does two things:
a) it does not absolve him of being an asshole for doing asshole things
b) it does not absolve the religion from pushing people to do asshole things.
So, asshole believer and asshole religion, both
I will concede that most of the current religious beliefs come from some book or a tradition and are interpretations of something that came before. Now and thousands of years ago.
All religions, but yea, its a set of canon with some interpritation attached to it. The interpritation typically evolves from earlier interpritations but not always.
But numbers do count. Being practical, when it’s a dude’s interpretation being criticized nobody cares. if it’s a million dudes’ interpretation you can find yourself cheek to cheek with a suicide bomber with bad teeth smiling at you while pulling a cord.
Numbers do “count” in the sense that it has some relevance to many issues, specifically the sense of peer-pressure it might produce.. I am not saying the numbers dont count, I am saying its harmful to think numbers are what define if something is a religion or not… You have popular interpritations and unpopular ones, thats it, aside from that there isnt much difference except in what effects come from something being popular at all (and yes that may effect if someone is a suicide bomber or not for sure).
Also, the fact that an asshole is religious and attributes his actions to his religion does two things:
a) it does not absolve him of being an asshole for doing asshole things
b) it does not absolve the religion from pushing people to do asshole things.
So, asshole believer and asshole religion, both
This is where we disagree a bit. Of course we agree on point A, but not B.. Religions cant be an asshole, ir cant push anyone anywhere, it is an interpritation, and either through peer pressure or ones own conviction a person adops that interpritation. If its through peer pressure than the blame is (partly) on the practitioners of the religion, not the religion itself. If it is ones personal conviction then there is no one to blame but the person.
This makes no sense.
If a belief is forced on the individual by society, we first judge the belief. If it's an asshole belief, then both it and the individual are assholes.
The same way, if a religion mandates being an asshole, both you for following it and itself are assholes.
I think I've overdone it with the assholes. Maybe I should pivot to another body part
No one says "that beleif is an asshole"... it doesnt even make sense gramatically. We judge a person to be an asshole if they adopt belifs that only an asshole would hold. But the beleif isnt hte asshole.
L:ikewise religions dont mandate anything, they are interpritations. You are choosing to adopt an interpritation that claims **god** mandates something. That isnt the religion mandating it, that is you interpriting gods wishes.
Alternative body parts to use instead of "asshold":
* Dick
* Shit head
* piece of shit
* Butt head
* Shit face
* Poopy head
Feel free to choose :)
You claim religions don't mandate things?
Don't kill people - commandment
Isn't that a mandate?
Nope, not in and of itself... I need to choose what it means and how I interprit it. I may, if i were a christian, think the old testamant is no longer valid due to jesus creating new rules (very common among christians), I may think the gematria meaning of the text implies something different than the plain words indicate. I may take it as a rule. I may take it as something that applied only to Moses and the jews and not to all people...
How I interprit the meaning, and then what I choose to do with that interpritation depends on if it is a commandment or not. The words existing on a page do not command anyone to do anything on their own unless theperson reading it interprits it as such.
a) religions don't exist, they're all ideas
b) religions can have any sort of belief and should be judged for them
no and no
No Iam not saying either...
Religions do exist. A religion is any set of canon texts/stories and some interpritation attached to them. That combonation exists and is very real. But interpritations dont have feelings or thoughts and dont make commandments. You as a follower may, however, draw conclusions from the interpritation and thus act a certain way as a result of that. But that is a choice of the follower, no one commanded him to it.
And no religions cant have "any sort of beleif"... again they arent people, they dont beleive anything themselves. However you as a reader of the religion may choose to have beleifs as a result of your interpritation.
You are injecting the interpretation layer to justify your exclusive individual responsibility argument retroactively.
A religion can be judged on its tenets, no exceptions.
@matrix The problem is that it is VERY hard, next to impossible to assert what hte book is actually telling you to do, which is a very different abstraction layer than simply what the book is describing.
Take the Leviticus 19:19 as a prime example since it seems straightforward but when we poke it a bit more its not...
"“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."
This seems perfectly straightforward, it is telling you what you cant do, it seems like we cant even debate the fact that is saying dont mix fabrics or seeds...
But its not that straightforward.. there are several competitings interpritations all of which have validity...
1) This is simply a long list of laws for a region at the time, a result of the long-windedness of the bible, not a proclemation from god. This is backed up by the suspicious lack of "god said" or any assertion these are rules set down by god .
2) the hebrew gamatria of the text reveals a hidden story (which historians are aware of by the way). The surface text isnt particularly important, the gematrial interitation, the underlying message,is.
3) It is literally telling you whatis and is not allowed (a generally jewish interpritation since this is old testamant).
4) a later set of books considered by only some people to be legit talk about jesus and in those stories they negate much of the rules set down in the old-testimant, so these rules are not enforced by god anymore but they used to be. (this is what most christians think)
The list goes on... There is no "right".. there are just endless interpritations, all valid within the frameowkrs of that particiular "canon" (both oral and written canon)