The absolute fucking brainworm to think that anything blockchain wouldn't mean strong centralization of control to very few people and entities.
Explain how
@feld
Who can directly edit a blockchain?
Who can directly verify a blockchain?
Who can decide *how* a blockchain works and is used?
Who can directly edit a blockchain?
Who can directly verify a blockchain?
Who can decide *how* a blockchain works and is used?
What does it mean to "directly edit"?
Everyone can directly verify by rubbing the software and syncing ...
What do you mean "how it works and is used"? Do you mean you want a say in what applications are allowed to use it?
I am interested in an honest thought provoking discussion here if you want to engage in one
Everyone can directly verify by rubbing the software and syncing ...
What do you mean "how it works and is used"? Do you mean you want a say in what applications are allowed to use it?
I am interested in an honest thought provoking discussion here if you want to engage in one
The blockchain is permissionless; this is not its responsibility. It is the burden of the user/customer to do their homework by maybe checking out who the artist is and find out directly from them if they published it on the blockchain and which contract address they used. In fact the best thing would be for the artist to directly integrate an NFT gallery directly into their website that shows the items in the contract. These things are being built so it's quite unfair to criticize things for not being "ready for the masses" when the entire thing is in its infancy yet.
This is really no different than someone registering paypall.com and swindling people who are stupid enough to not verify the domain or perhaps making sure that Gucci bag you're buying for a steal in a back alley in NYC is real and not counterfeit.
The only real difference here is that no government or official really has a way to step in and regulate it. But I guess the real question is -- have they been doing a good enough job of it in the rest of the world that you believe we must have their protections here? I'd say they've been ineffective at best.
This is really no different than someone registering paypall.com and swindling people who are stupid enough to not verify the domain or perhaps making sure that Gucci bag you're buying for a steal in a back alley in NYC is real and not counterfeit.
The only real difference here is that no government or official really has a way to step in and regulate it. But I guess the real question is -- have they been doing a good enough job of it in the rest of the world that you believe we must have their protections here? I'd say they've been ineffective at best.
@feld @lanodan so essentially trusting blockchain is not that different from trusting some organization. I understand not wanting to trust banks with your money, but NFTs are still weird. Doing homework sounds a lot like GPG/PGP bullshit to me.
With your example artist could setup an overcomplicated system to show his images from NFT (which would also involve downloading the blockchain), or they could spin up a shitty joomla or better yet a statically generated gallery website and it would be much more efficient, simple and admin/user-friendly.
To me it feels like solving wrong problems the wrong way - blockchain is like adding armor to a vehicle - makes sense to add armor to a car if you live in Iraq Detroit, but adding armor to a helicopter wouldn't help it, in fact it might make it very inefficient and barely usable.
What problem bitcoin solves? Less dependency on banks and operational errors in banking, less dependency on governments for currency.
What problem NFTs solve? Uh.... ability to brag about having your name on a gaypeg while avoiding auction houses?
With your example artist could setup an overcomplicated system to show his images from NFT (which would also involve downloading the blockchain), or they could spin up a shitty joomla or better yet a statically generated gallery website and it would be much more efficient, simple and admin/user-friendly.
To me it feels like solving wrong problems the wrong way - blockchain is like adding armor to a vehicle - makes sense to add armor to a car if you live in Iraq Detroit, but adding armor to a helicopter wouldn't help it, in fact it might make it very inefficient and barely usable.
What problem bitcoin solves? Less dependency on banks and operational errors in banking, less dependency on governments for currency.
What problem NFTs solve? Uh.... ability to brag about having your name on a gaypeg while avoiding auction houses?
> Doing homework sounds a lot like GPG/PGP bullshit to me.
except the tooling will be less terrible, but yes, it's a fair analogy for the current state of things
> With your example artist could setup an overcomplicated system to show his images from NFT (which would also involve downloading the blockchain),
No, you have a fundamental misunderstanding here. The images are not *on* the blockchain; the artist knows the URLs to the images and doesn't need a full copy of the blockchain to do this with their website. They will likely use one (or many!) platform as their preferred place to run their sales/auctions and can rely on their APIs. It doesn't matter how many places it's listed at; the real data about the asset listings, prices, etc is on the blockchain (literally in the contract, IIRC, which is why I have to pay a fee / sign transactions to list something for sale) so any platform capable of displaying the contract can participate in the sale. You're not stuck with a single place like eBay because e.g., it's too much effort to items on sale in sync on multiple platforms.
It's also feasible that with a single javascript library and one line declaring their contract address you could embed the entire gallery on a webpage. Every user browsing the site with a web3 wallet could connect and buy/make bids right there. I'm sure it will be a drag'n'drop module on Wordpress, Squarespace, etc soon.
> , or they could spin up a shitty joomla or better yet a statically generated gallery website and it would be much more efficient, simple and admin/user-friendly.
ok so why aren't artists doing this? Why aren't they making life changing money with a static website and some terrible shopping cart software or Etsy or selling their images on stock photo sites? You have to ask yourself "why are they successful here, but not elsewhere?" and the answer is: reduced friction (for monetary transactions) and network effects
> What problem NFTs solve? Uh.... ability to brag about having your name on a gaypeg while avoiding auction houses?
Christies and Sotheby's auction houses are literally selling NFTs too... for ETH, not dollars or euros...
except the tooling will be less terrible, but yes, it's a fair analogy for the current state of things
> With your example artist could setup an overcomplicated system to show his images from NFT (which would also involve downloading the blockchain),
No, you have a fundamental misunderstanding here. The images are not *on* the blockchain; the artist knows the URLs to the images and doesn't need a full copy of the blockchain to do this with their website. They will likely use one (or many!) platform as their preferred place to run their sales/auctions and can rely on their APIs. It doesn't matter how many places it's listed at; the real data about the asset listings, prices, etc is on the blockchain (literally in the contract, IIRC, which is why I have to pay a fee / sign transactions to list something for sale) so any platform capable of displaying the contract can participate in the sale. You're not stuck with a single place like eBay because e.g., it's too much effort to items on sale in sync on multiple platforms.
It's also feasible that with a single javascript library and one line declaring their contract address you could embed the entire gallery on a webpage. Every user browsing the site with a web3 wallet could connect and buy/make bids right there. I'm sure it will be a drag'n'drop module on Wordpress, Squarespace, etc soon.
> , or they could spin up a shitty joomla or better yet a statically generated gallery website and it would be much more efficient, simple and admin/user-friendly.
ok so why aren't artists doing this? Why aren't they making life changing money with a static website and some terrible shopping cart software or Etsy or selling their images on stock photo sites? You have to ask yourself "why are they successful here, but not elsewhere?" and the answer is: reduced friction (for monetary transactions) and network effects
> What problem NFTs solve? Uh.... ability to brag about having your name on a gaypeg while avoiding auction houses?
Christies and Sotheby's auction houses are literally selling NFTs too... for ETH, not dollars or euros...
Well it certainly makes proof of ownership easier in the high end art world, but let's ignore art completely because this is a a fringe use case that just happened to get popular quickly.
How about tickets to an event or stocks?
How do I transfer stocks that I own directly to another person without involving regulatory agency that makes me sign a bunch of paperwork?
How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub? A lot of people have season tickets to a sports team and it's incredibly painful to deal with these platforms and they also take a huge cut IIRC.
How do I buy licensed software and transfer it to another person without them worrying that I've given a copy of the CDKEY to 20 other people?
Or an ebook? You'd literally be able to resell ebooks. You might say "well that's stupid, ebooks are easy to pirate and should be cheap" but they're kinda expensive because a secondhand market doesn't exist for them like it does for physical books. But if you could buy any ebook for like $5 and resell it online and the author gets a 10% cut of every sale they'd make way more money and people would be less interested in trying to pirate it if you remove the friction and make it cheap and easy.
There are so many possibilities with NFTs and we've not even scratched the surface yet. The JPEGs are not the entirety of NFTs.
How about tickets to an event or stocks?
How do I transfer stocks that I own directly to another person without involving regulatory agency that makes me sign a bunch of paperwork?
How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub? A lot of people have season tickets to a sports team and it's incredibly painful to deal with these platforms and they also take a huge cut IIRC.
How do I buy licensed software and transfer it to another person without them worrying that I've given a copy of the CDKEY to 20 other people?
Or an ebook? You'd literally be able to resell ebooks. You might say "well that's stupid, ebooks are easy to pirate and should be cheap" but they're kinda expensive because a secondhand market doesn't exist for them like it does for physical books. But if you could buy any ebook for like $5 and resell it online and the author gets a 10% cut of every sale they'd make way more money and people would be less interested in trying to pirate it if you remove the friction and make it cheap and easy.
There are so many possibilities with NFTs and we've not even scratched the surface yet. The JPEGs are not the entirety of NFTs.
@feld @lanodan >How about tickets to an event or stocks?
event tickets are often not tied to a person nor have name written on it, if they are then you're probably fucked and event sucks anyway idk. I'd just contact event organizer in this case, or transport company in case of railroad tickets.
Not to mention, event tickets don't really require THAT much security, usually, it would probably be cheaper to make a local database/list for specific event and then throw it away/archive when event ends.
>stocks
i have absolutely no experience on the topic so I'll keep quiet on this one.
>How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub?
you mean ticketmaster/stubhub doesn't send you a PDF with the ticket you show at the entrance?
>How do I buy licensed software and transfer it to another person without them worrying that I've given a copy of the CDKEY to 20 other people?
oh boy everybody just loves licensed proprietary software, i'm sure people would extremely happy that NFTs are used to further strengthen DRMs.
also if you need a CDKEY here's one: fckgw-rhqq2-yxrkt-8tg6w-2b7q8
>ebooks
pirate. absolutely. fucking. everything.
You are going from
>How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub?
to
>But if you could buy any ebook for like $5 and resell it online and the author gets a 10% cut of every sale
This seems contradictory - you say that NFTs would let you bypass ticketmaster from reselling but also be able to pay fraction from reselling ebooks?
>There are so many possibilities with NFTs and we've not even scratched the surface yet.
it's like, guy who just invented steam engine and like "holy shit this has so many applications" and first thing he does is shove it up his own ass for pleasure and try to shove it each and every possible place whether it fits or doesn't. Yeah sure let's use steam engine to blow some air, doesn't matter if it makes air hotter, it's cool technology.
I understand the excitement and the desire to apply solution to every problem ever, but current application is extremely inefficient (from what i heard updating blockchain DNS entries costs 5 times the yearly fee for conventional domain ownership, AN UPDATE) and most popular application (ugly monkeys) is a circlejerk of extreme retardation.
Probably the biggest problem is that it's so ridiculously money-centric it's disgusting. It's like opposite of torrents/ipfs/boinc. What's the appeal of NFTs to people who aren't interested in selling, and instead interested in giving away for free? inb4 "gtfo commie scum"
image.png
event tickets are often not tied to a person nor have name written on it, if they are then you're probably fucked and event sucks anyway idk. I'd just contact event organizer in this case, or transport company in case of railroad tickets.
Not to mention, event tickets don't really require THAT much security, usually, it would probably be cheaper to make a local database/list for specific event and then throw it away/archive when event ends.
>stocks
i have absolutely no experience on the topic so I'll keep quiet on this one.
>How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub?
you mean ticketmaster/stubhub doesn't send you a PDF with the ticket you show at the entrance?
>How do I buy licensed software and transfer it to another person without them worrying that I've given a copy of the CDKEY to 20 other people?
oh boy everybody just loves licensed proprietary software, i'm sure people would extremely happy that NFTs are used to further strengthen DRMs.
also if you need a CDKEY here's one: fckgw-rhqq2-yxrkt-8tg6w-2b7q8
>ebooks
pirate. absolutely. fucking. everything.
You are going from
>How do I sell my tickets to a concert that I bought on Ticketmaster to another person on the internet without using Ticketmaster/Stubhub?
to
>But if you could buy any ebook for like $5 and resell it online and the author gets a 10% cut of every sale
This seems contradictory - you say that NFTs would let you bypass ticketmaster from reselling but also be able to pay fraction from reselling ebooks?
>There are so many possibilities with NFTs and we've not even scratched the surface yet.
it's like, guy who just invented steam engine and like "holy shit this has so many applications" and first thing he does is shove it up his own ass for pleasure and try to shove it each and every possible place whether it fits or doesn't. Yeah sure let's use steam engine to blow some air, doesn't matter if it makes air hotter, it's cool technology.
I understand the excitement and the desire to apply solution to every problem ever, but current application is extremely inefficient (from what i heard updating blockchain DNS entries costs 5 times the yearly fee for conventional domain ownership, AN UPDATE) and most popular application (ugly monkeys) is a circlejerk of extreme retardation.
Probably the biggest problem is that it's so ridiculously money-centric it's disgusting. It's like opposite of torrents/ipfs/boinc. What's the appeal of NFTs to people who aren't interested in selling, and instead interested in giving away for free? inb4 "gtfo commie scum"
image.png
Friends of mine won tickets to Super Bowl XLIX -- all expenses paid trip. They flew down, stayed at the nice hotel, showed up to the stadium and were turned away -- tickets were fake. Radio station they won the tickets from was scammed and had no idea. They had to watch the game from a local bar.
Now if the event tickets were NFTs and the NFL had an app to store/verify the authenticity of the tickets this would be an impossible scenario. And for physical tickets -- you can hand out debit-card like tickets with chip that is the wallet and it could still be easily verified.
Now if the event tickets were NFTs and the NFL had an app to store/verify the authenticity of the tickets this would be an impossible scenario. And for physical tickets -- you can hand out debit-card like tickets with chip that is the wallet and it could still be easily verified.
@feld @hj
You don't *need* NFTs for this.
You could just like scan the QR Code on the ticket to verify it on the website, sure another person could steal your code but that can also 100% happen with an NFT, you can't prevent copying.
And you can jump through an absolute ton of hoops, the only entity which will ever be able to verify your ticket is at the actual entry.
> debit-card like tickets
Sure, let's produce an absolute massive ton of chips which will then be never reused or recycled.
You don't *need* NFTs for this.
You could just like scan the QR Code on the ticket to verify it on the website, sure another person could steal your code but that can also 100% happen with an NFT, you can't prevent copying.
And you can jump through an absolute ton of hoops, the only entity which will ever be able to verify your ticket is at the actual entry.
> debit-card like tickets
Sure, let's produce an absolute massive ton of chips which will then be never reused or recycled.
>> debit-card like tickets
> Sure, let's produce an absolute massive ton of chips which will then be never reused or recycled.
It's not any worse than the refunds we get in America coming via prepaid debit cards in the mail -- even if the balance is only $2 (happened to me recently).
This would be a temporary trend until everyone has their own crypto wallets. The mobile OS ecosystem needs to make the wallets a first class citizen, but it will happen sooner than you think.
> Sure, let's produce an absolute massive ton of chips which will then be never reused or recycled.
It's not any worse than the refunds we get in America coming via prepaid debit cards in the mail -- even if the balance is only $2 (happened to me recently).
This would be a temporary trend until everyone has their own crypto wallets. The mobile OS ecosystem needs to make the wallets a first class citizen, but it will happen sooner than you think.
They said the same thing about credit cards. And Paypal. And then Venmo/Cash App. And now everyone uses them.
@feld @lanodan I don't have a credit card (only debit) and still have some cash. I see people use cash every day at grocery store. Cards solve problem of inconvenience of cash and change counting + physical weight and of course dubious security improvements (people can't steal cash from your wallet but they can still rob a bank).
What's Venmo and Cash App, literally first time I hear about them.
What's Venmo and Cash App, literally first time I hear about them.
They're how you instantly send money to your friends in USA as our banks won't provide any utility for that. There's a 3rd party trying to integrate p2p payments with banks called Zelle but it's terrible.
It's basically Paypal (Venmo literally is Paypal) with some social media-ish features.
It's basically Paypal (Venmo literally is Paypal) with some social media-ish features.
