@mario A cow enjoys being milked gently, full udders are painful. A chicken does not care about its eggs, they are usually indifferent, I've lived with them. Is it stealing when a person picks up another persons droppings they've deposited on the roadside?

@Jazzy_Butts >A cow enjoys being milked gently
You can not know this. For all you know, it's non-consensual stimulation of breasts. Also the milk is supposed to feed the calf that had been taken away from her.
>A chicken does not care about its eggs, they are usually indifferent
Chickens put bodily resources into producing the egg. At times they will pick it open and eat it in order to regain those resources.
>Is it stealing when a person picks up another persons droppings they've deposited on the roadside?
Since we live in a society, it is not. Animals do not live in our society and therefore we took it upon ourselves to treat them and their excrements as products for our trade and enjoyment.
Would it be okay to pick up a woman's period without further clarification just like people do with chicken eggs?

@mario If she left it on the side of the road as trash yes. I can infer the cow likes it because as mammals we share very basic reflexes, a cows startle reflex is the same as a persons as a dogs as a dolphins. If a mammal is in pain another mammal can tell. A child can tell when a dog is upset. How do you know the chickens and cow don't love me, and are grateful to be able to offer me something they produce anyway in excess?

@Jazzy_Butts >If she left it on the side of the road as trash yes.
Assuming that she would be okay with it. What if the actually want to dispose of it, not having someone eat or trade it?
>I can infer the cow likes it because as mammals we share very basic reflexes
The cow might like the relief, but it's definitely not in their interest to have their bodily products being stolen and traded.
>How do you know the chickens and cow don't love me, and are grateful to be able to offer me something they produce anyway in excess?
I can't, just like you can't that they do. And since there is doubt, veganism is the way to go.

@mario I disagree, I am a simple mind, the milk causes no pain, the eggs cause no concern, I see no problem. If an apple grower would neither care or notice if I, a starving peasant, were eating his apples without his permission, then it doesn't matter even if it is theft. The matter of a thing is in it's results, the farmer experiences no suffering so the theft doesn't matter. Now consider if I was actually feeding the farmers trees, again, without him knowing, supporting him, so he can convert that support into apples, then it can even be argued I have a RIGHT to some of those apples.

@Jazzy_Butts >the milk causes no pain, the eggs cause no concern
-insert leaked farming footage here-
even if there might be cases where it's actually in the animals interest to take their body products away from them, doing it gives legitimization to the torture industry that it has been evolved into. it's the market model.
>I, a starving peasant
Are you tho? Do you really, really, really need cow milk and chicken eggs? What is keeping you from looking for alternatives? Would you literally starve if it wasn't for them?

@mario I have a b12 deficiency and my relatives did too and they learned the hard and sad way that b12 supplementation is not good enough, drs told them that and they sadly had to start eating meat again. But I'm not even talking about eating meat specifically, but eggs and milk, which is where I'll get my Bs from. And you are right about factory farms which is why I don't want to support them and I live in farm country so there are small family farms all around me. I really want to get my own cow and chickens, or even better than a cow, a goat or sheep, sheep preferably so I can harvest wool, again, the sheep NEEDS to be shorn or it will die slowly from wool rot, maggots will eat it alive.

@Jazzy_Butts I don't understand why supplementing b12 doesn't work, do you have some medical details? genuinely interested

@mario idk I was a child and they might have been lying but he was very sad and dejected and he was eating some meat and they said it was because the Dr. said he had to because he wasn't absorbing enough b12 from the supplement, I think there's probably different forms of b12/different bioavailability of b12 in different states.