Why do all these bots I see on the timeline post every 20 minutes? That's way too often.
@Looming I mute most of them. Some instances do stuff like force botposts unlisted. I like it in theory but I don't have plans to do that before the switch to Revolver.
@p It's basically unenforceable because it operates on a gentleman's agreement to only list actual bots as bots and always list actual bots as bots. Now consider for a moment how effective gentleman's agreements are on the internet. They apply until at least one of the parties in them decides they don't.
@Looming
@Looming
@NEETzsche @Looming Yeah, it ensures that only badly behaved bots are on the public timeline.
@p @Looming I'm aware that you don't like this perspective, but I am perfectly comfortable working under gentleman's agreements in these scenarios, even if they're unstated (which runs the risk of them only applying in one party's head), and then deciding what to do about it once it gets broken by somebody.
It's just that, one should know that it's an unenforceable gentleman's agreement when you're entering the game rather than after the fact. Enforcement efforts for this kind of thing are always a pain in the ass and they aren't problems that have strict mathematical solutions. It's like writing and maintaining something to the effect of a CAPTCHA system; there's no definitive thing humans can do that computers can't, and so endeavoring to make one is signing up for a permanent cat and mouse cycle that is much more painful than just fixing bugs or something. It really sucks, and I hate playing those kinds of cat and mouse games, which you would be signing up for in trying to automate detecting bot behavior.
It's just that, one should know that it's an unenforceable gentleman's agreement when you're entering the game rather than after the fact. Enforcement efforts for this kind of thing are always a pain in the ass and they aren't problems that have strict mathematical solutions. It's like writing and maintaining something to the effect of a CAPTCHA system; there's no definitive thing humans can do that computers can't, and so endeavoring to make one is signing up for a permanent cat and mouse cycle that is much more painful than just fixing bugs or something. It really sucks, and I hate playing those kinds of cat and mouse games, which you would be signing up for in trying to automate detecting bot behavior.
@NEETzsche @Looming
> I'm aware that you don't like this perspective
I think you have again failed to model what I think.
> I am perfectly comfortable working under gentleman's agreements in these scenarios
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, the only context in which I've heard you start babbling about "gentlemen's agreements" and "cat and mouse games", there's "etiquette when participating in a network" and there's an actual agreement. In my view, it's poor form to shoot down someone's drone, but it's also poor form to make your drone buzz your neighbor's sleeping dog. So you buzz someone's dog a few times and then they shoot down your drone and you appeal to etiquette and they laugh and then you pull the conversation back to that repeatedly because you didn't like the answer you got. I don't know if you expect us to cover any new ground here, but we won't if you're going to do your usual thing of repeating your complaints and never listening.
> one should know that it's an unenforceable gentleman's agreement
An agreement requires two parties. Conventions require only general consensus among the people that were here when you arrived, and etiquette is a matter of convention. There are conventions on this network about bots; I say I don't like the bots that constantly repost images from elsewhere (anime butthole bots, 4chan mirror bots) and that post public frequently, especially if they do it on the hour, contributing to the :00 bot stampede, but the convention is that there are repost bots spamming TWKN all the time.
> I hate playing those kinds of cat and mouse games, which you would be signing up for in trying to automate detecting bot behavior.
All I said was that I think forcing bots to unlisted is reasonable to do, but that it assumes well-behaved bots, and that I have no plans to do so. Do you disagree with any of that?
> I'm aware that you don't like this perspective
I think you have again failed to model what I think.
> I am perfectly comfortable working under gentleman's agreements in these scenarios
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, the only context in which I've heard you start babbling about "gentlemen's agreements" and "cat and mouse games", there's "etiquette when participating in a network" and there's an actual agreement. In my view, it's poor form to shoot down someone's drone, but it's also poor form to make your drone buzz your neighbor's sleeping dog. So you buzz someone's dog a few times and then they shoot down your drone and you appeal to etiquette and they laugh and then you pull the conversation back to that repeatedly because you didn't like the answer you got. I don't know if you expect us to cover any new ground here, but we won't if you're going to do your usual thing of repeating your complaints and never listening.
> one should know that it's an unenforceable gentleman's agreement
An agreement requires two parties. Conventions require only general consensus among the people that were here when you arrived, and etiquette is a matter of convention. There are conventions on this network about bots; I say I don't like the bots that constantly repost images from elsewhere (anime butthole bots, 4chan mirror bots) and that post public frequently, especially if they do it on the hour, contributing to the :00 bot stampede, but the convention is that there are repost bots spamming TWKN all the time.
> I hate playing those kinds of cat and mouse games, which you would be signing up for in trying to automate detecting bot behavior.
All I said was that I think forcing bots to unlisted is reasonable to do, but that it assumes well-behaved bots, and that I have no plans to do so. Do you disagree with any of that?
@p I can't say I'm a humongous fan of bot stampedes either, but reposting things from elsewhere never bothered me and in fact I follow a bunch of bots that other people wrote which do basically that. I think it's useful to mix correspondence with news feed, and so publishing things into the timeline on a rolling basis is pretty sweet. I don't navigate the whole known timeline much anymore. Because there's just so much crap to sift through, whether it be bot stampedes or just a bunch of dumbass posts from real users that I don't care about.
@Looming
@Looming
@cope @Looming @p I've said this before and it remains true. For 99% of fediverse users, especially on our side of it, everybody falls into one of three categories:
* Political dissidents
* Tech spergs
* Criminals
If you want to find people who just generate content, like actual content and not e-drama or tech sperging, you need to go on commercial platforms like Twitter or Discord. Nobody making Doom WADs uses the fediverse as their primary medium, basically. No noteworthy novelist uses fedi. By and large regular people just do not use this kind of service at all. And it's like pulling teeth to get them to do so. So you're very limited in who you have access to here.
* Political dissidents
* Tech spergs
* Criminals
If you want to find people who just generate content, like actual content and not e-drama or tech sperging, you need to go on commercial platforms like Twitter or Discord. Nobody making Doom WADs uses the fediverse as their primary medium, basically. No noteworthy novelist uses fedi. By and large regular people just do not use this kind of service at all. And it's like pulling teeth to get them to do so. So you're very limited in who you have access to here.
@NEETzsche @Looming @cope
> I just post real content where it gets engagement.
You complain no one posts that stuff, then say "I refuse to post it here because muh engagement metrics". Like I said forever ago, if you just keep at it, the people that pay attention to what you are doing will shift if you do what you want. A lot of the people watching you are watching you because of all of your e-drama; whatever you do will attract people that want to see what you're doing. Nobody that wants to see whatever it is you want to post is going to follow you if you refuse to post it and only do "TOTAL POASTOID DEATH THEY ARE SUED FOREVER THIS TIME WILL SPELL THE END".
If you spend a week ignoring the drama and only talking about whatever it is that you want to see around here, then you'll see more of it. When I get time to do music, I post about music, I post songs I am working on, I get feedback from musicians, because I met musicians on here because I was talking about music and following people that talked about music. I post about Plan 9 and Inferno and people that are interested in that start talking to me, and it took a minute because it's kind of a niche OS but eventually I found other people that are interested in it or they found me.
There's no engagement algorithm, this place is exactly what you make it. Your complaint is entirely that a robot didn't mediate your social interactions to facilitate more like-smashing. Fuck's sake, try it for a week. Make a big-ass thread about something you're interested in because you're interested in it, not because you want eNgAgEmEnT. You'll end up with engagement anyway because people that are interested in it will be interested in talking to someone that is interested in it. What do you want, to be a dancing chimp trading Content for shallow engagement metrics or to talk about things that interest you with people that are also interested in them? I guarantee that you yourself will have trouble remembering posts where you had more ~*~engagement~*~ but you certainly remember conversations you had that made an impression on you or where you heard some thoughts you'd never heard before.
> I just post real content where it gets engagement.
You complain no one posts that stuff, then say "I refuse to post it here because muh engagement metrics". Like I said forever ago, if you just keep at it, the people that pay attention to what you are doing will shift if you do what you want. A lot of the people watching you are watching you because of all of your e-drama; whatever you do will attract people that want to see what you're doing. Nobody that wants to see whatever it is you want to post is going to follow you if you refuse to post it and only do "TOTAL POASTOID DEATH THEY ARE SUED FOREVER THIS TIME WILL SPELL THE END".
If you spend a week ignoring the drama and only talking about whatever it is that you want to see around here, then you'll see more of it. When I get time to do music, I post about music, I post songs I am working on, I get feedback from musicians, because I met musicians on here because I was talking about music and following people that talked about music. I post about Plan 9 and Inferno and people that are interested in that start talking to me, and it took a minute because it's kind of a niche OS but eventually I found other people that are interested in it or they found me.
There's no engagement algorithm, this place is exactly what you make it. Your complaint is entirely that a robot didn't mediate your social interactions to facilitate more like-smashing. Fuck's sake, try it for a week. Make a big-ass thread about something you're interested in because you're interested in it, not because you want eNgAgEmEnT. You'll end up with engagement anyway because people that are interested in it will be interested in talking to someone that is interested in it. What do you want, to be a dancing chimp trading Content for shallow engagement metrics or to talk about things that interest you with people that are also interested in them? I guarantee that you yourself will have trouble remembering posts where you had more ~*~engagement~*~ but you certainly remember conversations you had that made an impression on you or where you heard some thoughts you'd never heard before.
@p @NEETzsche @Looming @cope
> You complain no one posts that stuff, then say "I refuse to post it here because muh engagement metrics". Like I said forever ago, if you just keep at it, the people that pay attention to what you are doing will shift if you do what you want.
i dont really understand that line of thinking at all right, like i have my interests cuz they are part of who i am, not because of internet people. on my first tour of fedi i was spending a lot of time posting about random pieces of art that caught me & writing quick bits of analysis of it. i wouldve done this for an audience of 0 people and just started doing it on fedi because there was a text box for me to type in. if anyone showed up with any sort of comment it was a nice bonus
> You complain no one posts that stuff, then say "I refuse to post it here because muh engagement metrics". Like I said forever ago, if you just keep at it, the people that pay attention to what you are doing will shift if you do what you want.
i dont really understand that line of thinking at all right, like i have my interests cuz they are part of who i am, not because of internet people. on my first tour of fedi i was spending a lot of time posting about random pieces of art that caught me & writing quick bits of analysis of it. i wouldve done this for an audience of 0 people and just started doing it on fedi because there was a text box for me to type in. if anyone showed up with any sort of comment it was a nice bonus
Turns out, I never said I can't find people with mutual interests. They just aren't on fedi. Glad we could clear that up for you.
@NEETzsche @cope @Looming @p @rats_god so you refuse to post certain stuff because people who share that interest aren't here. but they aren't here because nobody posts that stuff. but you don't post that stuff because they aren't here. but 
the obvious answer is the same as for facebook. fuck the mainstream platforms. post that shit here and just see how it goes. otherwise nothing changes
the obvious answer is the same as for facebook. fuck the mainstream platforms. post that shit here and just see how it goes. otherwise nothing changes
This already got addressed. I tried posting about that stuff. It didn't work. So. Thanks for trying, though? It was a valiant effort.
@NEETzsche @cope @Looming @p @rats_god I'm saying, who the fuck cares? you're playing into a catch-22. if nothing else, post it elsewhere and clone it here so that if people *want* to come here they can. there are some programs that do that for fedi/twitter at least
ofc this is easy for me to say. I pathologically refuse to use twitter, facebook, discord, etc at this point so I've got no choices but weird niche platforms
ofc this is easy for me to say. I pathologically refuse to use twitter, facebook, discord, etc at this point so I've got no choices but weird niche platforms
I use whatever works, and so far, for most topics outside of the narrow wheelhouse of e-drama, politics, and tech sperging, the best place to go is on Discord or Twitter or fucking Reddit. That's my point, and that point is correct.
When I say we should endeavor to fix this, I get answers like the ones I'm getting now. I'm getting this "heh, skill issue" response like I'm somehow personally responsible for the state of fedi as a whole. I'm not.
When I say we should endeavor to fix this, I get answers like the ones I'm getting now. I'm getting this "heh, skill issue" response like I'm somehow personally responsible for the state of fedi as a whole. I'm not.
>expects users to post about things into the void for weeks, months, years at a time instead of going to the places that already discuss these topics
>jUsT pOsT tHe tHiNgS yOu WaNt To SeE
>jUsT pOsT tHe tHiNgS yOu WaNt To SeE
Okay. We’re going to test this theory, then. Since I’m on the receiving end of a dogpile, we’re going to test it empirically. Since Pete suggested one week, that’s the metric we’re going to use.
Each day, I will make ten posts into the void about:
TTRPGs
Doom WADs
Novelism
Printing equipment
Stocks/options
I will not respond to ANY e-drama, politics, or tech sperging. At all. None. Zero. At the end of this week, we will measure the amount of engagement generated by doing this and compare it to the past week’s (starting right before this challenge begins) engagement about e-drama, politics, and tech sperging. We will expect it to generate about as much, within a generous 15% margin of error. If it doesn’t meet or exceed that level of engagement, we conclude that I was correct, and that it isn’t a NEET problem that can be solved by just posting this kind of thing hard enough, but a fediverse problem.
You must explicitly agree to these terms in order to challenge my position that it’s a fediverse, not a NEET, problem. To those who don’t, they concede my point by default. Those people are:
@Lumeinshin
@cope
@Zerglingman
@p
@roboneko
@rats_god
To convince me to actually bother doing this test, AT LEAST HALF of you must EXPLICITLY agree to it within the next hour. If less than half EXPLICITLY agree to this test within the next hour, the entire lot of you concede my point outright. This is your opportunity to show me that I’m wrong. Take it, or accept that I’m right.
I’ll return in 1hr to see how many of you agreed to these terms and how many would prefer to accept that I’m right on face value.
@NEETzsche @cope @Looming @Zerglingman @p @roboneko @rats_god
ngl mate, dunno how you've decided that from anything anyone said, a week wont do anything. people already conceded that because of how things are at the moment, especially if you're seen as a shit stirrer.
Even in my post you replied to, I didnt deny it may take months or years to recreate the circles you are in.
hence the 'post the things you want to see' its the general 'be the change you want to see' that applies to everything
maybe... people just dont wanna hear what you have to say
There are people who would follow me for example, but dont because i'm prone to long periods of engaging in random edrama or debating (and just general long wordcounts) but thats the price I pay.
Like neko said, its a catch 22. You have an issue with how things are, but you do the same things and engage with others doing the same. Perception IS reality in some sense, you are part of that perception. change the perception and change the reality
ngl mate, dunno how you've decided that from anything anyone said, a week wont do anything. people already conceded that because of how things are at the moment, especially if you're seen as a shit stirrer.
Even in my post you replied to, I didnt deny it may take months or years to recreate the circles you are in.
hence the 'post the things you want to see' its the general 'be the change you want to see' that applies to everything
maybe... people just dont wanna hear what you have to say
There are people who would follow me for example, but dont because i'm prone to long periods of engaging in random edrama or debating (and just general long wordcounts) but thats the price I pay.
Like neko said, its a catch 22. You have an issue with how things are, but you do the same things and engage with others doing the same. Perception IS reality in some sense, you are part of that perception. change the perception and change the reality
Or, and get this, I could criticize fedi for its problems and go to other services that are more suited for the use case I want. While maintaining that my criticisms are valid (they are).
Because that's what I'm actually doing. Our side of the fediverse is dominated by e-drama, politics, and tech sperging. That will not change no matter what I do. In fact, even if I pointedly eschew it, which I tried doing for a couple months, it will follow me everywhere and I will not get the kind of engagement I'm hoping for. I will be pissing into the void.
And that's my point. The point is, if I want to talk about any topic outside of e-drama, politics, and tech sperging, it's actually in my interests to go on Discord, Twitter, or Reddit. This is a damning indictment of the fediverse, not of NEET's posting habits.
Because that's what I'm actually doing. Our side of the fediverse is dominated by e-drama, politics, and tech sperging. That will not change no matter what I do. In fact, even if I pointedly eschew it, which I tried doing for a couple months, it will follow me everywhere and I will not get the kind of engagement I'm hoping for. I will be pissing into the void.
And that's my point. The point is, if I want to talk about any topic outside of e-drama, politics, and tech sperging, it's actually in my interests to go on Discord, Twitter, or Reddit. This is a damning indictment of the fediverse, not of NEET's posting habits.
@NEETzsche
That sounds to me like a feature, not a bug.
There is no need to run to this corner of the internet to talk about other topics. The point of fedi is to allow debates on unpopular topics. it doesn't have to be great at anything else.
@LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche I'm still in for trying to get everybody on board. I would like to find people to play vidya with here, and I am trying to. So far, no Australians.
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@Zerglingman @NEETzsche
I could play with you from outside of Australia.
I don't mind turning my monitor upside down.
I need to set some other stuff up.