@Spag @applejack Spag lemme just say all these arguments are literally the same arguments that i hear from otso, char, and apple against the holocaust, if you can argue that the holocaust happened then you surely can argue that the holodomer also happened and vice versa

@Mysha @applejack That is true, and I hear the same, so I went looking for sources on the holocaust and found even the fucking blueprint of the camps, in the original german.

Show me sources. I have looked up the ones you provided and they are all "US said X", the same US that publishes "north koreans have to push trains"

@Mysha @applejack Show me something in Ukrainian or Russian. If it was an order, it was a written one

@Spag @Mysha Ты даже бы умел читать то?

@applejack @Mysha Yes

@Spag @Mysha The camps existed, that's not the fake claim, it's that they were death camps

@applejack @Spag is it not at all suspicious that the germans, who had alot of problems with jews, trying their hardest to get them out of germany and when that didnt succeed they instead started making camps where they harbored jews and several other "impure" people inside germany and other nazi controlled areas

@applejack @Spag "get out of the fatherland you impure degenerates" "nevermind stay inside the fatherland you impure degenerates"

@Mysha @Spag If they did, there'd probably be some evidence of systemic killings

Any documents, any communications, any mass graves, "death" chambers with actual cyanide traces, anything, and you'd probably have a more consistent story from the allies

Instead they concentrated them instead of just killing them, spent resource to keep them alive, rabbit breeding programs, concerts, swimming pools, even infirmaries, and actual records of them worrying about the typhus problem and their wellbeing

They couldn't really get them out of Germany during a war and they needed labour anyways

@applejack @Spag every country from poland to france, that were involved in the fatherland all agree that the nazis killed people the only people that disagree are nazis themselves

and on that note back to what i was saying about how its stupid for them to make camps and keep people they hate; Unless they literally planned on feeding them constantly, which they were already struggling to feed their own people i see no reason why they would keep them inside germany

@Mysha @Spag It's literally illegal to say anything else (for some reason)

@applejack @Spag It really isnt, ive met german, french, and polish nazis that all argue the same shit as you are arguing

@applejack @Spag Its illegal to own mein kampf, nazi flags, and other nazi memorabilia in germany (which hasnt stopped them from flying other flags and going out in public and supporting nazism anyways)

@applejack @Mysha @Spag This

@applejack @Mysha I did find german sources of them being death camps, but won't look up again since it's not what is being discussed

@Spag @Mysha Questioning the holocaust is illegal in Germany. German sources would be some of the worst

@Spag @Mysha

>According to Natalya Naumenko, collectivization in the Soviet Union and lack of favored industries were primary contributors to famine mortality (52% of excess deaths), and some evidence shows there was discrimination against ethnic Ukrainians and Germans.[60] Lewis H. Siegelbaum, Professor of History at Michigan State University, states that Ukraine was hit particularly hard by grain quotas which were set at levels which most farms could not produce. The 1933 harvest was poor, coupled with the extremely high quota level, which led to starvation conditions. The shortages were blamed on kulak sabotage, and authorities distributed what supplies were available only in the urban areas.[citation needed] According to a Centre for Economic Policy Research paper published in 2021 by Andrei Markevich, Natalya Naumenko, and Nancy Qian, regions with higher Ukrainian population shares were struck harder with centrally planned policies corresponding to famine, and Ukrainian populated areas were given lower amounts of tractors which were correlated to a reduction in famine mortality, ultimately concluding that 92% of famine deaths in Ukraine alone along with 77% of famine deaths in Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus combined can be explained by systematic bias against Ukrainians

>Between January and mid-April 1933, a factor contributing to a surge of deaths within certain region of Ukraine during the period was the relentless search for alleged hidden grain by the confiscation of all food stuffs from certain households, which Stalin implicitly approved of through a telegram he sent on the 1 January 1933 to the Ukrainian government reminding Ukrainian farmers of the severe penalties for not surrendering grain they may be hiding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

>At the time of the Holodomor, over one-third of the villages in Ukraine were put on "blacklists" for failing to meet grain quotas. Blacklisted villages were encircled by troops and residents were blockaded from leaving or receiving any supplies; it was essentially a collective death sentence.

>While Ukrainians were dying, the Soviet state extracted 4.27 million tons of grain from Ukraine in 1932, enough to feed at least 12 million people for an entire year. Soviet records show that in January of 1933, there were enough grain reserves in the USSR to feed well over 10 million people. The government could have organized famine relief and could have accepted help from outside of the USSR. Moscow rejected foreign aid and denounced those who offered it, instead exporting Ukraine's grain and other foodstuffs abroad for cash.

https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor

@Spag @Mysha Just that bit about the soviets' own records is enough to prove it was deliberate murder

@applejack @Mysha You just copied wikipedia which, may I remind you,

@Spag @Mysha That bit about the records is from the University of Minnesota, and most of what I quoted from wikipedia directly states it's source in the text

You ask for a source but there's no source I can give you that you wouldn't make an excuse for

@applejack @Mysha There is, a primary one, like the order no. 00485 about the execution of poles

@Spag @Mysha Found it

https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html

Citations to the Archive of California Guide to the Archives of the Soviet communist party and Soviet state microfilm collection: Russian State Archives of Social and Political History (Rossiiskii gosudarstvennyi arkhiv sotsialno-politicheskoi istorii - RGASPI)

>Since then, the opening up of once inaccessible archives has brought to light a number of documents that have made it possible to analyze and better understand the political mechanisms behind the genesis and aggravation of the famine in Ukraine and Kuban, and the role of the Soviet leadership in this process. These sources include secret resolutions passed by the Politburo or the Central Committee of the Ukrainian Communist Party, Stalin’s correspondence with his closest collaborators Molotov and Kaganovich, and secret police reports on the situation in the countryside, in particular at the “collection fronts”.

And it says the exact same shit I've been saying

>inb4 link every archive entry detailing X, Y, Z, ..., specifically
No

@applejack @Mysha Not a primary source

I don't want you to give me a source for every little detail, just a primary one

@Spag @Mysha It's literally a list of primary sources

@applejack @Mysha Eye witness reports, such as the North Korean ones that say "I had to push a train to go from one city to the other"?

It is very well known that eye witness are paid, with plenty of proof, when it's against a system they don't like

@Spag @Mysha Yes, I hate them too, which is why I didn't quote a single instance of it

@Spag @Mysha Kinda weird how it's 95% of evidence for the holocaust though, which you're not allowed to question (by law sometimes)

@applejack @Mysha Why are you talking about the holocaust tho

@Spag @Mysha That's part of the thread topic?

@applejack @Mysha No it isn't?

I came talking about the holodomor, for mysha was subtooting my holodomor posts. It's a holodomor thread

@Spag @applejack My original post was about how both arguments are basically the fucking same

also i need to start going to nazi and ussr fanboys and telling them about how what they are saying will get them arrested or hung in the father or motherland lmao

@Mysha @applejack Oh yeah, prove that.

Also, am not a stalinist, and Lenin was based

@Spag @applejack "prove that" bro lenin literally enforced similar laws similar to what the french revolutionaries enforced and i dont give a flying fuck about proving shit to you since every time someone asks you to do that its just "well i dont have to because that isnt related"

@Mysha @applejack Lenin literally legalized all forms of homosexuality and transsexuality on 1920s

@Spag @applejack Ok and?

@Mysha @applejack Just saying that he wouldn't kill me for my ideas, though Stalin probably would