@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> that's just provably false, in multiple ways

How so?

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel

#NameTheTrait

https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait

Logic doesn't often win debates, though.

@alex @realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel we're talking about a world thatjustifies the killing of other humans. Chicken are jsut not a high priority I guess

@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Yeah but anyone who thinks killing other humans is wrong (ie the vast majority of people) should have to consider nonhumans to have equal moral value or else contradict themselves.

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins I mean I do believe in survival of the fittest in some way but pls dont cancel me aaa

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins can we pls release millions of wolves in europe so they can eat humans who are weak thanks

@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins You say that about chickens etc because it's socially accepted, but I don't see you going around killing weaker humans

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins im just gonna shut up tbh

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

So, is bestiality okay? If humans are just any other animal. Like nobody stopped a donkey and a zebra from mating, in fact we all watched to see what would happen.

Spoiler alert: Zonkeys, zonkeys happened.

@realcaseyrollins @alex @issdeinschnitzel bruh when humans and neanderthals mated, we got white people

@igel @realcaseyrollins @alex @issdeinschnitzel so did black people mated with monkeys

@1iceloops123 @alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins neanderthals werent monkeys. But they supposedly gave us shit like autism and other mental disabilities that blacks get less

@igel @alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins but they have high blood pressure and diabetes. everyone are sprugs

@1iceloops123 @alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins when it comes to genetics, everything outisde of subsaharan africa is basically incest. But well, thats controvertial or something.

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Nope because animals lack the vernacular to consent. I think we ought to treat them like we do children in society.

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> animals lack the vernacular to consent

So all animal sex is rape?

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> I think we ought to treat them like we do children in society.

Why children?

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel It's just an analogy. Intelligence is hard to quantify, but pigs for example have similar cognitive abilities as 2 year old human children.

@realcaseyrollins @alex @issdeinschnitzel ducks have mutliple vagina holes that lead nowhere because of rape lol

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel No because humans are animals. I should have said "all known nonhumans lack the ability." Neanderthals were a different species than us, but likely had the ability to communicate with us using language.

@alex @realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel neanderthals were not very social, which is how homo sapiens wiped them out

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

There are a lot of factual issues in P2 of the first argument from your picture btw

But I would agree that if animals and humans have the same worth than veganism definitely is the logical moral ideology as a consequence

Either that or that cannibalism and/or hunting humans for sport is okay lol

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Let's talk about P2. Name the trait?

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel Incest is a pretty big one, polygamy is another.

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Not sure I follow. The question is, what about animals makes them not good enough for us to value our lives? Are they not smart enough? Well if a human was as dumb as a cow we still wouldn't think it's okay to kill and eat that human. etc.

@realcaseyrollins @igel @issdeinschnitzel *value their lives

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel IDK a lot of people think the incestuous are contemptible and borderline subhuman.

Plus, if we're going to be logically consist, the same moral code should exist for both humans and animals anyway. Like if humans and animals are the same there should be the same level of disgust or apathy for incest in both cases.

Either we have the same rules for all species, or we don't.

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Are you saying because animals do incest they don't have moral value?

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel Well they have moral value, but not at the same level as humans

@alex @realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel not RECENTLY

@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Right, because we're becoming less savage. We decided that it's an injustice to kill and eat an unintelligent human. The exact same logic applies to a cow without needing to change the logic at all.

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins well except I cant really imagine cows surviving a resettlement of wolves which is currently happening in germany. They cant run very fast nor are very strong

@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Well we'd think it's an injustice to kill and eat humans that are weak and slow, too.

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins well lets assume wolves are everywhere, guns or at least swords would become commonplace again for selv defence. Cows cant weild a sword. So theyd jsut be scnacks for wolve packs. Either way theyd die out tbh

@realcaseyrollins @alex @issdeinschnitzel hunting humans would be pretty fun ngl

@igel @alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins

@alex @realcaseyrollins @igel @issdeinschnitzel the site you linked to seems to be dedicated to deconstructing that argument. instead it points to a different formulation, which is, uh, a little less catchy

https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait_2.0%2B_(official)

@fixpoint @igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins This one is for philosophy nerds but the first version is more accessible and still mostly right

@alex @fixpoint @igel @realcaseyrollins

The destinction is personhood. Most people assume even very retarded humans are still persons.

@issdeinschnitzel @alex @igel @fixpoint Wait I just realized something; is there evidence that animals are moral, or have a moral complexity approaching that of humans?

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel @fixpoint There's a lot of research about self-awareness, eg the "mirror test" (which all apes and even pigs have passed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel @fixpoint does this apply to morality? Couldn't find anything in the article about moral value

@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel @fixpoint I think self awareness is a prerequisite to having an understanding of morality

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel @fixpoint Does it mean you have morals tho?

Like having sexual organs is a prerequisite to having sex but I'm a virgin, so clearly one doesn't necessarily lead to the other

@alex @igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins it invites too many questions about the nature of moral value: where does it come from, is it equal in all individuals.

a simple trait one can come up with is moral agency, which we generally consider to be absent in animals. but moral value being dependent on moral agency seems like a circular argument, so p1 is very, very flawed.

@issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins @alex well, I guess that just means Ive never met one

@issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins @alex @igel it's really not. it usually only comes up when I go out to eat and they question why I'm orderin from the vegan menu.

@Ox @issdeinschnitzel @alex @realcaseyrollins german cuisine wouldnt exist without meat so Im just like ?????????????? whenever this stuff comes up

@Ox @alex @igel @realcaseyrollins

I really think you are the exception here.

@issdeinschnitzel @alex @igel @realcaseyrollins I doubt it considering the amount of people I know who I didn't even know they were vegan for months after meeting them