Ah, so the FSF elected an SJW as President.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=FSF-President-2020
So..
“The FSF Board chose me at this moment as a servant leader to help the community focus on our shared dedication to protect and grow software that respects our freedoms. It is also important to protect and grow the diverse membership of the community. It is through our diversity of backgrounds and opinions that we have creativity, perspective, intellectual strength, and rigor…It requires renewed focus to achieve our goals. We must remember what unites us and why we came to free software in the first place. What inspired us in the past? What will keep us inspired, and what will inspire new generations of free software developers? We must be kind to each other and respect each other when our good faith arguments differ, in order to produce the best solutions together. I pledge to support honest dialog and emerging leaders in the quest to secure the future for free software for generations to come, and not to alter the tenets of the free software vision.”
@shebang so because he says "diverse" he's instantly a SJW? mate what
@tuxcrafting @shebang Well depends on the kind of diversity but there is sometimes this forced diversity thing and it never really works well for anyone.
@lanodan @tuxcrafting @shebang I don't know what there is to not understand there. The only people who cares about people's color of skin, orientation, etc. are SJW. The main point of such organization is to try to increase membership, just simply membership. Like, who cares how much melanin the membership has, or how gay it is. Plus, to actually say something like this immediately after being chosen means it's a big virtue signal and is going to be the focus
If anyone here is a member or cares deeply about the organization, either fight this tooth and nail or jump ship immediately. The org is definitively going to waste a stupid amount of time in diversity initiative instead of actually doing it's supposed job. Worse case scenario, they'll start pushing for CoC, anti-free speech and the likes initiative. Either way, the organization is 100% going to fall into stupid crap it shouldn't do, thanks to intersectionality
If anyone here is a member or cares deeply about the organization, either fight this tooth and nail or jump ship immediately. The org is definitively going to waste a stupid amount of time in diversity initiative instead of actually doing it's supposed job. Worse case scenario, they'll start pushing for CoC, anti-free speech and the likes initiative. Either way, the organization is 100% going to fall into stupid crap it shouldn't do, thanks to intersectionality
@coolboymew @shebang @tuxcrafting Well I get what you mean but a lot of people also left FSF or basically boycotted it because of how cis-sexist stallman is.
I'd rather wait a bit to see where it goes.
I'd rather wait a bit to see where it goes.
@lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting Well isn't Stallman a massive literal autist?
I dunno, going on the complete other way doesn't seem like a good idea. Does these diversity initiative even works? All I see them attracting are the kind of people that want this kind of initiative in the first place and then they'll start shitting the place hardcore
I did check the Twitter feed as someone pointed out and ... it's not a good look
I dunno, going on the complete other way doesn't seem like a good idea. Does these diversity initiative even works? All I see them attracting are the kind of people that want this kind of initiative in the first place and then they'll start shitting the place hardcore
I did check the Twitter feed as someone pointed out and ... it's not a good look
@coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting why would autism even be part of this discussion?
I have plenty of autistic traits. I also have a man-bun, barefoot sandals and an understanding of systemic injustice.
I see no problems with diversity but I do see a general lack of it in the FOSS world. If someone doesn't see that as a problem I'm fine with that but when one starts seeing diversity as a threat I feel there might be room for some discussion. My general stance is that if my actions make someone feel unwelcome then I need to figure out how to make them feel welcome instead (because I very rarely want people to feel unwelcome).
I of course agree that the strive for diversity can be done in good and bad ways, assuming that it will be done in a bad way seems rather premature in my book.
I have plenty of autistic traits. I also have a man-bun, barefoot sandals and an understanding of systemic injustice.
I see no problems with diversity but I do see a general lack of it in the FOSS world. If someone doesn't see that as a problem I'm fine with that but when one starts seeing diversity as a threat I feel there might be room for some discussion. My general stance is that if my actions make someone feel unwelcome then I need to figure out how to make them feel welcome instead (because I very rarely want people to feel unwelcome).
I of course agree that the strive for diversity can be done in good and bad ways, assuming that it will be done in a bad way seems rather premature in my book.
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@qrsbrwn @coolboymew @shebang @tuxcrafting @lanodan I personally don't see why anyone would feel unwelcomed. If someone were to contribute to an open-source project and use bigoted slurs, they would most likely be banned regardless if the project in question has a CoC or not.
@xianc78 @qrsbrwn @coolboymew @shebang @tuxcrafting @lanodan It's sad to hear people not understanding why someone would feel unwelcome when it comes to CoC's and diversity initiatives. CoC's tend to be rules made to catch you out, they are often vague and could apply at any stage... imagine having anxiety, then someone comes up to you and tells you to leave because you said the wrong opinion and somebody reported you for it. Or they falsely accused you of something. Don't you think that would be unwelcoming and potentially even scarring? As if you don't have enough to deal with when you have anxiety issues. Also, they tend to use demanding language... like they demand you respect everyone but what if respect means something different to you than what they mean, so not only can it be confusing but also emotionally demanding. Respect is often something that gets abused, respect should be earned and something you give somebody that you admire or look up to. Not handed out to everyone because they want you to behave a certain way towards them even if it is detrimental to you. It should be about politeness, not respectful.
Diversity initiatives not only take away resources that would be better placed on coding, but they can bring in the wrong types of people who don't care about the core values. Just look at the people pushing for diversity, what is more important to them? Diversity or freedom software? I've seen these types push in and change the atmosphere to one that is less welcoming, you are less able to voice opinions they don't like. It destroys diversity in thought. Look at how people get cancelled. On top of that, diversity initiatives place the emphasis on physical diversity... they push more form filling, they want to know more data about you than is necessary to do your job. Then the diversity forms pigeonhole you into a label... they force you to choose options to identify yourself. This is everywhere to show how diverse businesses are. Do you not think that diversity questions are unwelcoming? It's cold... it's paperwork but also invasive of privacy. It shouldn't matter how diverse you are... I think that notion is disempowering. You are telling me that you hired me because I had a different physical attribute to some norm? Physical attributes that I very likely didn't get a say over? That don't actually represent who I am? That makes me feel powerless. My main contribution is some physical difference that is out of my control. I have no way of proving that I got in due to this or because my skillset is welcomed. I don't want to be some number on a quota sheet. That is not the definition of welcoming me in. But that is the result of diversity initiatives and quotas.
So, yeah... I will say that the FSF have chosen a president who represents ideals that mean I don't feel welcome there any more.
Diversity initiatives not only take away resources that would be better placed on coding, but they can bring in the wrong types of people who don't care about the core values. Just look at the people pushing for diversity, what is more important to them? Diversity or freedom software? I've seen these types push in and change the atmosphere to one that is less welcoming, you are less able to voice opinions they don't like. It destroys diversity in thought. Look at how people get cancelled. On top of that, diversity initiatives place the emphasis on physical diversity... they push more form filling, they want to know more data about you than is necessary to do your job. Then the diversity forms pigeonhole you into a label... they force you to choose options to identify yourself. This is everywhere to show how diverse businesses are. Do you not think that diversity questions are unwelcoming? It's cold... it's paperwork but also invasive of privacy. It shouldn't matter how diverse you are... I think that notion is disempowering. You are telling me that you hired me because I had a different physical attribute to some norm? Physical attributes that I very likely didn't get a say over? That don't actually represent who I am? That makes me feel powerless. My main contribution is some physical difference that is out of my control. I have no way of proving that I got in due to this or because my skillset is welcomed. I don't want to be some number on a quota sheet. That is not the definition of welcoming me in. But that is the result of diversity initiatives and quotas.
So, yeah... I will say that the FSF have chosen a president who represents ideals that mean I don't feel welcome there any more.
@sim
I'm sorry to hear that you don't feel welcome. I haven't seen any cases where someone did break CoC and was removed without having the opportunity to fix things. If that happens it is of course not inclusive.
I'm not saying that every diversity effort ever had always been good.
What do you think would make you more welcome?
Apart from "not having any diversity efforts and code of conduct" I mean.
@xianc78 @coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting
I'm sorry to hear that you don't feel welcome. I haven't seen any cases where someone did break CoC and was removed without having the opportunity to fix things. If that happens it is of course not inclusive.
I'm not saying that every diversity effort ever had always been good.
What do you think would make you more welcome?
Apart from "not having any diversity efforts and code of conduct" I mean.
@xianc78 @coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting
@qrsbrwn @coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting @xianc78 That's a good question. The two excluded would help things to be less triggering for me. It's difficult because I'm not a coder, I've tried and it gives me a headache. I need that type of thing to be okay. Not everyone needs to be a part of FSF or to code. I feel like there is a lot more pressure, especially through initiatives.
But I will say that I do agree with freedom software, when I joined fedi a few years back before mastodon, I did feel more welcomed here. Once people were able to explain things to me when I asked questions and introduced me to the concept... I was hooked. I realised just how unwelcoming non-free software is and I cared about my privacy and data. It was great to have an alternative that I can turn to rather than feeling stuck on platforms like twitter. I'd feel more welcome just having these alternatives without any political or social pressure to conform to some standard outside of freedom software itself, you know? Just to be free to use software that fits my own needs and find out what it can do for me. Being able to interact with others who can walk me through things when I need that help like when I installed my first OS. Be able to give back where I can, which has been through moderating three instances although I only moderate one now. I think things like that are more welcoming.
But I will say that I do agree with freedom software, when I joined fedi a few years back before mastodon, I did feel more welcomed here. Once people were able to explain things to me when I asked questions and introduced me to the concept... I was hooked. I realised just how unwelcoming non-free software is and I cared about my privacy and data. It was great to have an alternative that I can turn to rather than feeling stuck on platforms like twitter. I'd feel more welcome just having these alternatives without any political or social pressure to conform to some standard outside of freedom software itself, you know? Just to be free to use software that fits my own needs and find out what it can do for me. Being able to interact with others who can walk me through things when I need that help like when I installed my first OS. Be able to give back where I can, which has been through moderating three instances although I only moderate one now. I think things like that are more welcoming.
@sim
None of those things are going away because people agree not to be hostile to eachother.
I know a certain CoC gets a lot of flak but a code of conduct is just when a group of people agree what is acceptable to do within the community.
This question has gotten way more infected than it has to be. Probably because no one wants to see that what they have been saying and doing actually is hurtful to others. I'm closer to 40 than 30 and looking back I have been on the wrong side of history quite a few times. Mainly because of ignorance.
@coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting @xianc78
None of those things are going away because people agree not to be hostile to eachother.
I know a certain CoC gets a lot of flak but a code of conduct is just when a group of people agree what is acceptable to do within the community.
This question has gotten way more infected than it has to be. Probably because no one wants to see that what they have been saying and doing actually is hurtful to others. I'm closer to 40 than 30 and looking back I have been on the wrong side of history quite a few times. Mainly because of ignorance.
@coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting @xianc78
@qrsbrwn @coolboymew @lanodan @shebang @tuxcrafting @xianc78 A group of people which never includes me. Yet it is just a group of people agreeing what is acceptable and what isn't within the community. Funny that. How am I supposed to feel welcome when it is forced upon me with no input from me? Or it doesn't even represent who I am or what would help me to feel safe? I already told you, they tend to be very vague and confusing. Also demanding. It's very anxiety-provoking because I don't know when it will trip me up on something I said or did, or for an opinion/value I hold. I prefer a lot more freedom to be who I am without worrying about rules I can't even properly decipher so I don't get into trouble. Not to mention that it uses authority. So many people have bossed me about that I really don't need that in my spare time when I'm working on a hobby or trying to enjoy myself.
Do you not realise that I actually get triggered over this? Do you not realise that it is actually detrimental for me? What if it isn't about not seeing when I hurt others but actually being hurt by this? What if other people are hurt by this and they are responding as though they are hurt? Or they realise how abused and destructive they can become?
Do you not realise that I actually get triggered over this? Do you not realise that it is actually detrimental for me? What if it isn't about not seeing when I hurt others but actually being hurt by this? What if other people are hurt by this and they are responding as though they are hurt? Or they realise how abused and destructive they can become?
@sim @xianc78 @coolboymew @lanodan @qrsbrwn @shebang @tuxcrafting i would rather have the software i rely on written by a team of 100% white cishet male christian conservatives who don't believe i should have the right to vote (or 100% arab-albanian zoroastrian radicals who follow orthodox posadism, or WHATEVER) if those are the best people for the job, than an extremely diverse team of less qualified people. i don't understand why anyone gets so het up about specific industries not having the "right" labor force composition to the point of being willing to sabotage those industries to "fix" the "problem" (which they almost always do -- diversity activists claim that "X% of 'perfectly qualified people'" are being "excluded" by not enforcing the most extreme affirmative-action policies imaginable, but these policies always, always result in the industry losing talented people, gaining a bunch of variably-useless parasites whose only qualifications are their skin color or the shape of their genitals, the quality of the work decreasing, and the work environment suffering. and as a bonus it helps distract from legitimate labor issues and gives bosses a weapon to use to hamstring unions or prevent their formation altogether, which is ofc the real reason the forces of capital have thrown themselves behind this diversity shit.)
@xianc78 @qrsbrwn @coolboymew @shebang @tuxcrafting @lanodan >why anyone will feel unwelcomed
because CoCs do more than "ban bigoted slurs". theyre a flag planted on a project stating that the sjws have claimed territory, and that they will be responsive to the cancel culture cabal, so if any of those people personally dislike you, they can find some excuse to kick you out of all projects that they own. it's a trojan horse.
i have both online and offline experience of "safe spaces". they are the least-pleasant, least-welcoming places to be, where everyone is either averse to telling you the truth or outright hostile toward you. offline was a queer (literally) experience, cus the group couldnt boot me cus i was trans and it was indeed a safe space, but everyone was cold toward me, i got fiercely shut down when trying to express certain topics of interest
when i warn people about the real underlying effects of CoCs, im not theorising conspiracies. it's a real threat.
how this pertains to OP? i dont know, personally i disliked the fsf for a long time so i dont have strong feelings. for those who do believe that foss integrity hinges on the fsf's success, as some kind of canary, just keep a watchful eye over the new lead
because CoCs do more than "ban bigoted slurs". theyre a flag planted on a project stating that the sjws have claimed territory, and that they will be responsive to the cancel culture cabal, so if any of those people personally dislike you, they can find some excuse to kick you out of all projects that they own. it's a trojan horse.
i have both online and offline experience of "safe spaces". they are the least-pleasant, least-welcoming places to be, where everyone is either averse to telling you the truth or outright hostile toward you. offline was a queer (literally) experience, cus the group couldnt boot me cus i was trans and it was indeed a safe space, but everyone was cold toward me, i got fiercely shut down when trying to express certain topics of interest
when i warn people about the real underlying effects of CoCs, im not theorising conspiracies. it's a real threat.
how this pertains to OP? i dont know, personally i disliked the fsf for a long time so i dont have strong feelings. for those who do believe that foss integrity hinges on the fsf's success, as some kind of canary, just keep a watchful eye over the new lead
@xianc78 @coolboymew @lanodan @qrsbrwn @shebang @tuxcrafting and when i say "watchful eye" i mean sign up to the mailing lists and actually participate in relevant discussions. quit posting on fedi about it and acting like its gonna help. if you want your opinion heard, go to them about it
A lot of software projects have bigoted slurs in it with no ban happening.