@matana @beardalaxy @histoire Concepts like shame are evolved. You don't have social order without wrongs and rights and those only exist if you have a sense of them

I know animals masturbate, so what you said is still probably true but there are more facets to it

Shame is evolved, old society evolved over a long period of time whereas modern society is more so invented by people that have no idea what they're doing or are even actively malicious

Imagine an analogy with food. We evolved to find sweet things good and yet when we apply that to the modern world we get obese because our environment is so different from what we evolved in

Food, sex, even things like drugs are evolved drivers that can go awry

Society and it's evolution acts as a correcting factor. Being fat is unhealthy so feeling shame over it keeps you from eating sweets so you stay healthy

It's not some pure black and white thing but think of nofap basically like keto. You don't need carbs to live and eliminating them completely makes the whole thing simpler

What's the exact ideal thing in every instance can't really be described, but abstaining, I think, is a sane one that shouldn't be shit on