@sjw It's so funny because everything they say is actually quite racist: the idea that black Americas don't have access to the Internet, that the majority of them are poor and therefore do not own cars (or own but not legally drive cars with a license, because they can't get access). This may have been true a long time ago, but access to state ID is no longer costly or difficult.
The problem is that the issue of voter fraud is very overblown, and most voter ID laws do nothing to stop it.
The main problem with voter ID laws is that they are targeted intentionally to suppress voters. For example, let's say you have a law that makes it so you either need a state ID (which you'd have to go out of your way to get and pay a fee) or a driver's license. Surely you can understand how it would be easier for drivers to vote, and harder for non-drivers. So while anyone *can* vote, drivers have it easier.
That's the case now. If ALL forms of issued ID (student ID, driver's license, state ID, etc) were allowed (instead of allowing things that white people are more likely to have - this has happened in some southern states) and ID's were easy and cheap to get (instead of having to wait in line for multiple hours and go out of your way to get them) I would support voter ID laws, or at least, not be against them.
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@mewmew @matrix @djsumdog @sjw
While I'm very strongly for voter ID requirements at the same time I do recognize the real reason people are against them, and its simple.. IDs cost money, time and effort to get. So the poor and homeless are less likely to be able to vote. This tends to effect minority communities more strongly than others.
The solution in my mind is simple. Make IDs free and offer better services for people to go through the hoops needed to obtain them, but doing away with vote IDs all together seems like the wrong way to go.
I agree though, letting people who are not citizens vote is not the motive in the least.
@mewmew @matrix @sjw @freemo but let's face it, this isn't Europe. If you're a member of the working poor, in most of America, you're driving. You need an ID to buy alcohol, apply for a lot of state benefits .. one of the services a lot of homeless and day centers provide is helping people get their IDs (the one in my home town has an Social Security person come in weekly to help people; she even got her own office). I don't think ID is as big a barrier today as before.
It isnt just the "working poor" who has a right to vote, the non-working poor does too. also while most/many of the working poor do have an ID there is a huge portion that dont. Especially in cities there are HUGE numbers of people with no drivers license or ID who work under the table.
You can claim that it is not such a hard thing to do - but look at actual cases of these laws being overturned: https://www.pubintlaw.org/cases-and-projects/judge-rules-voter-id-law-unconstitutional/
> Judge Bernard McGinley’s order recognized that the law would have disenfranchised hundreds of thousands: “The overwhelming evidence reflects that there are hundreds of thousands of qualified voters who lack compliant ID.”
> When the law was originally passed by the state legislature, many touted it as a means for eliminating voter fraud. Throughout the course of trial, the state admitted that no such fraud exists.
> Requiring electors who lack complaint Photo ID (and thus have no driver’s license) go to a [Drivers License Center] that may not be in their county, and may be several miles away and unreachable by public transportation, is untenable. Compound that barrier by physical limitations, preventing certain electors from traveling or waiting in line, the DLC Location Requirement becomes insurmountable.
they intentionally excluded ID's used primarily by black people.
Well thats not an argument against IDs its an argument for ensuring any ID law is inclusive of all types of photo ID, and as I said we need to make these free and accessible to make it work, which these laws never do. So while I support the laws in theory there must be other changes that happen first.
@mewmew @matrix @sjw @jeder @freemo Because all Europeans (at least in EU member states) have IDs and they also function as visas. American can't even agree to have citizen identification numbers (SSN should have never been used to identify people. The IRS just didn't want to track their own Tax IDs .. also Tax IDs in most other countries are not used as secrets).
If you are homeless it most absolutely is... sure more people can afford it, some can not and those who cant still have a legal right to be able to vote.
Waiting in line isnt really the big issue in terms of hardship. The issue is homeless and many poor don't have their birth certificates, it is a long drawn out process to get that fixed and can cost quite a bit.
My close friend is a citizen nad has a technical issue on her birth certificate where it has teh wrong name, would cost her over 1000$ to fix it. Not that she is typical. But there are issues beyond a 10$ fee as well for some.
Not requiring voter ID enables massive fraud schemes which would be impossible without ID requirements. This talk about people so poor they cannot afford a $10 ID card is a propaganda concocted by fraudsters to allow them to fake votes. It is shameful when we see our fellow citizens fall for it, but equally so a testament to how strong propaganda has become in the current year, and how we must not treat the ability of those determined to subvert our democracy lightly.
Putting aside for a second that there is no evidence that any such "massive fraud" exists, more importantly, I support ID laws, bu you need to fix the underlying issue first.. Its pretty simple, make IDs free and provide better assistance for people who need to obtain IDs and have difficulty. If you do that then I see no issue having ID laws.
Yes, we want all US citizens who have a right to vote to be able to exercise that right. If you want to change that, then make an amendment to the constitution, good luck passing it.
I for one would never support a law that seeks to exclude anyone with a legal right to vote from being able to do so, no matter how trivial.
@mewmew @matrix @sjw I think it goes back what we learned about Jim Crow era stuff, but that stuff doesn't apply today.
Having minimum requirements for guaranteeing 1-man-1-vote and citizenship for voting rights seems very reasonable. I mean it doesn't truly matter; our voting system in non-representative and beyond fucked up, but that's the basic idea.
I also don't understand why peeps are against' border security. What's the point of passports if you can't at least try to secure your State?
