igel
do vegans decline invitations to dinners? Like, my pakistani neighbor always cooks with lots of meat. Id never be able to decline out of sheer respect for his craft
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Alex Gleason
@igel The strong-hearted decline to sit at a table of violence against animals
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issdeinschnitzel
@alex @igel

Think of it as a religion. Would muslims decline an invitation to eat pork?
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Alex Gleason
@issdeinschnitzel @igel To me it's political, not religious. Animals are unique individuals with thoughts and feelings. It's an injustice to kill them when they've done nothing wrong.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @igel Politics do flow out of religion tho

I mean I don't think veganism is a religion necessarily (unless there's a lot of dogma I'm not aware of), but @issdeinschnitzel has a point here

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @igel @issdeinschnitzel The only way it's related to religion is that both involve morality. But I don't think veganism asks people to believe anything they don't already believe, it just asks them to apply their own sense of ethics consistently.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> it just asks them to apply their own sense of ethics consistently.

Not necessarily. Many who eat meat (in fact, I would argue to say "most") believe that human life is worth more than that of animals.

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Well that's just provably false, in multiple ways. In fact it's a form of discrimination like an extreme form of racism.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> that's just provably false, in multiple ways

How so?

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel

#NameTheTrait

https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait

Logic doesn't often win debates, though.
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igel
@alex @realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel we're talking about a world thatjustifies the killing of other humans. Chicken are jsut not a high priority I guess
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Alex Gleason
@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Yeah but anyone who thinks killing other humans is wrong (ie the vast majority of people) should have to consider nonhumans to have equal moral value or else contradict themselves.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

So, is bestiality okay? If humans are just any other animal. Like nobody stopped a donkey and a zebra from mating, in fact we all watched to see what would happen.

Spoiler alert: Zonkeys, zonkeys happened.

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Nope because animals lack the vernacular to consent. I think we ought to treat them like we do children in society.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

> animals lack the vernacular to consent

So all animal sex is rape?

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel No because humans are animals. I should have said "all known nonhumans lack the ability." Neanderthals were a different species than us, but likely had the ability to communicate with us using language.
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)
Follow

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel

There are a lot of factual issues in P2 of the first argument from your picture btw

But I would agree that if animals and humans have the same worth than veganism definitely is the logical moral ideology as a consequence

Either that or that cannibalism and/or hunting humans for sport is okay lol

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Let's talk about P2. Name the trait?
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel Incest is a pretty big one, polygamy is another.

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Not sure I follow. The question is, what about animals makes them not good enough for us to value our lives? Are they not smart enough? Well if a human was as dumb as a cow we still wouldn't think it's okay to kill and eat that human. etc.
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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @igel @issdeinschnitzel *value their lives
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel IDK a lot of people think the incestuous are contemptible and borderline subhuman.

Plus, if we're going to be logically consist, the same moral code should exist for both humans and animals anyway. Like if humans and animals are the same there should be the same level of disgust or apathy for incest in both cases.

Either we have the same rules for all species, or we don't.

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Alex Gleason
@realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel @igel Are you saying because animals do incest they don't have moral value?
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ERROR 301 (@realcaseyrollins@pleasehug.me)

@alex @issdeinschnitzel @igel Well they have moral value, but not at the same level as humans

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igel
@alex @realcaseyrollins @issdeinschnitzel not RECENTLY
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Alex Gleason
@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Right, because we're becoming less savage. We decided that it's an injustice to kill and eat an unintelligent human. The exact same logic applies to a cow without needing to change the logic at all.
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igel
@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins well except I cant really imagine cows surviving a resettlement of wolves which is currently happening in germany. They cant run very fast nor are very strong
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Alex Gleason
@igel @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins Well we'd think it's an injustice to kill and eat humans that are weak and slow, too.
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igel
@alex @issdeinschnitzel @realcaseyrollins well lets assume wolves are everywhere, guns or at least swords would become commonplace again for selv defence. Cows cant weild a sword. So theyd jsut be scnacks for wolve packs. Either way theyd die out tbh
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igel
@realcaseyrollins @alex @issdeinschnitzel hunting humans would be pretty fun ngl
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