@sickburnbro Spontaneous order is not the same thing as a government.

@xianc78 @sickburnbro

AUTISM MODE:

If by "government" they just mean some system or practice that enforces rules, then sickburnbro is correct. However, most of the time this term is used when referring to a singular monopolistic entity/corporation that creates and enforces "law", also known as a state.
I would also recommend distinguishing between natural law and man-made law - the former is good, and the latter is only good when it is based on natural law.

@KryptoBlok @xianc78 there is no singular entity when it comes to "government" though; agencies have power conflicts all the time. The USG denies the UN control over policies.

@KryptoBlok @xianc78 e.g:

@sickburnbro @xianc78 From what I can tell, this is a case similar to an auto-immune disorder, or a cancer - one part of the body is attacking another, but they are both part of the same whole, the "body" of government. (You could also compare it with corporations and subsidiaries, since states are essentially just big corporations. Govcorps, if you will.)
Of course, eventually the Texas organ/subsidiary may eventually be ejected or cut off from the rest of the body, in which case we would now be looking at two governments/bodies...if you know what I mean.
In this case, both entities would still have exclusive control over their respective territories, and would thus both be monopolies. (This would potentially be a less extreme form of monopoly though, since there would now be more than one entity in an area formerly controlled by a single entity, potentially making it easier to "vote by foot". Not as good as multiple entities competing peacefully in a single patch of land, but preferable to the previous arrangement.)

@xianc78 there is no such thing as "spontaneous order" with humans; we aren't molecules bounding around a void.

@Zealist @sickburnbro The ten commandments is basically the NAP minus the God first parts.

@xianc78 @sickburnbro i'm sorry

That only goes so far. If the laws violate God's law you are supposed to follow God's law instead. The NT was very clear that you are supposed to respect and follow your leaders so long as they are Godly men that follow God's laws.

@SapientPearwood @sickburnbro @Zealist What if I built a house in Bir Tawil and started living there? There are no nations or governments there so there is nobody to submit to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil

I don't care as long as you follow God's law first and foremost.

@SapientPearwood @xianc78 @Zealist @sickburnbro Very good point! As a Christian anarchist/voluntaryist, I would expect Godly leaders to follow the teaching laid out in Matthew 20:25-28.

That's a very good starting place but if they do only that while ignoring the rest of God's Word and law they're actively doing damage to their followers or flock. That's why there are so many pastors, leaders, etc that are absolutely worthless. Taking only a portion of the New Testament while ignoring the rest is what too many people do now in order to trick people into believing they are following God while in fact they're serving the Devil instead.

It's why faggotry and degeneracy has such a strong place in churches where it absolutely does not belong. You can't just take the Scripture in piecemeal fashion, it's all or nothing.

@SapientPearwood @xianc78 @Zealist @sickburnbro Agreed. This stuff I'm talking about is just a small part of the greater whole of Christianity.

@Zealist @xianc78 @sickburnbro Based on the context, and my studies of the original Greek, I would say this segment is probably talking about some kind of religious authorities and/or others given direct authority from God, not the state (at least as you and I know it).
Here's some interesting verses for study:
Mat. 20:20-28
1 Samuel 8
Judges 9

@KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro look, you literally said your bias earlier "me christian anarchist" but paul wrote the book of romans during a period when rome was persecuting christians and it means what it says, you can try to claim it says something else in a language i don't understand, but i'm not gonna take your word for it, considering your bias tell you what @SuperLutheran i need your help.

@Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro You need my help talking to an anarchist?
Like, a guy who reads the Bible, and sees God setting up kings and empires, establishing hierarchy even in the family setting, but still thinks the state is naturally bad? A guy who has the luxury of forming a political philosophy because the state given him breathing room beyond mere survival?

Lol I was an anarchist until I turned 17. The best argument against it is growing up.

@SuperLutheran @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro i'm not articulate person. you words better than me

@SuperLutheran @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro well i mostly meant cuz he's claming it doesn't read like that in another langauge which i got no idea, i'm english understander only.

@Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/13-7.htm

Spiritual authorities charging... earthly taxes?
What a silly notion.

@SuperLutheran @xianc78 @Zealist @sickburnbro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_tax

@SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro At best I'd say it's a "people are inherently good and if left to their own devices will do the right thing" kind of thing and at worst antinomianism by another name.

@Crux_Invictus @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro Retarded either way

@Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran Romans 13 explains, quite clearly, that the Christian is to obey the earthly government they find themselves under, it isn't about religious authority it's about the state/ruler. Given the context of the whole chapter we don't need to do a word study to understand Paul is talking about the state/ruler rather than some religious authority.

The command of Romans 13 applies even if the ruler is not Christian and even if they actively persecute Christians. The point is that God establishes all authority and rebelling against them, even if they are persecuting you, is rebelling against God.

However, there is still a hierarchy of obedience as the Christian must follow God first, meaning that if the ruler commands you to do something which would violate God's commands prioritise obedience to God. Generally this will mean civil disobedience to the point of martyrdom, there is an argument to be made for when the use of force may be permitted, but it's important to note that Holy Scripture does not give us a checklist to determine when violent rebellion is justified.

Romans 13 is a difficult chapter of a difficult epistle and should not be approached lightly. Especially when the people reading it are subject to anti-Christian rulers and don't want to be ruled by people who hate them. There's a lot of motivation for us to read exceptions into the text nowadays, but we must resist that temptation and let the Bible speak. Go through some of that good old tentatio, it builds character.

@Crux_Invictus @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro Good ol' Tentatio, turning us all into spiritual bodybuilders

@SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro No matter how far I run, Romans 13 continues to haunt me.

@Crux_Invictus @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 it makes good sense though. You have to have something like that or else "oh man, your king said something blasphemous, time to revolt!"

@sickburnbro @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 It's not so much the content, it's the days long threads that happen when it comes up

@Crux_Invictus @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 I thought you were having an internal conflict

@billy_hughes @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 The internal conflict of:
>It's bedtime
>Romans 13 is on the TL

@Crux_Invictus @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 I better hit the sack soon. Interesting chapter, maybe pick it up again later

@Crux_Invictus @billy_hughes @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 Easy, go the fuck to bed bro

@Crux_Invictus @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran I'll be honest, this chapter makes me unhappy; it doesn't seem right to me. It seems to say that all authority is good, so we should obey to ensure we're doing good. But almost all authority these days is evil. I don't like it. Also, it doesn't seem to allow for peaceful disobedience or martyrdom, because the ESV translation says to not even resist. I wonder if there's any difference in the author's eyes between power and authority, because I don't recognize anyone in power as having authority.

@Dovahkiin @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran That feeling you're having is called tentatio.

Romans 13 tells us that all authority is established by God, naturally we'd think then that means we'll always have faithful rulers which obviously isn't the reality of things. To combat this assumption we need to understand that what is 'good' isn't always pleasant. We suffer and go through sanctification for our good but we don't like it while it happens, this doesn't mean sanctification is evil or unjust.

We should also remember that our rulers also have free will, meaning that although God has placed them in authority for His purpose they are free to disobey and work against Him. Not to mention that an evil ruler may be a punishment for the sins of the people.

As for resisting per verse 2, remember that God comes first, which means that if the ruler commands you to do something that would cause you to disobey God then you must instead disobey the ruler. Paul is not telling us that we are 100% forced to obey the ruler in all things, instead we are not to use our faith as an excuse to not do things. For example we cannot use being Christians as an excuse to not pay taxes because the ruler will spend it on things that conflict with our faith. But if we are commanded to murder, for example, we obey God's command to not murder and do so civilly rather than violently.

As for your last point, I think you're looking for a way to ignore what Paul is saying by playing with definitions, I get it since I've also tried to do the same thing but try as I might I couldn't get away from what scripture said and just had to accept what was written.

@Crux_Invictus @Zealist @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran Maaaan, but I wanna rebel so baaaaaaad

@King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran

@Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran Curses, the Almighty has called dibs

@King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran to be fair i don't think there's any justice i could enact against my enemies, that hte Lord couldn't do better.

@Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran Yeah, I guess the guy who can flood the planet and incinerate whole towns in an instant can probably punish evildoers better than me

@Zealist @King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @sickburnbro @SuperLutheran even putting our enemies into the woodchipper feet first only gets you a few seconds of sweet justice, but the Lord's justice lasts an eternity.

@EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran that's what I keep telling people; anger is not limitless, so you will need to be careful with punishment.

@sickburnbro @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran Yeah, and like, even if it was

I’d get really tired after like 10 minutes of that shit

@King_Noticer @sickburnbro @EssentialUtinsil @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran i couldn't put a person througha w oodchipper, it was sicken me, i'm not becoming a brutal monster even if my enemies are disgusting evil monster's themselves.

@Zealist @King_Noticer @EssentialUtinsil @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I think personally the most brutal I could stand would be draw and quarter.

@Zealist @King_Noticer @EssentialUtinsil @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I think maybe if I had a kid that was molested by that pedo I could probably woodchipper them, on second thought.

@sickburnbro @Zealist @King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I have kids, and while I'll refrain from publicly speculating on what I might do to somebody that hurt them, I think I can safely say a woodchipper wouldn't be involved. Plus I don't know what that would do to my woodchipper.

@EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I was just wondering if you had a state that actually was punishing people that committed horrible crimes like this and their solution was to say "only the people injured can administer the state defined punishment"

@EssentialUtinsil @sickburnbro @Zealist @King_Noticer @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran >i dont know what that would do to my woodchipper

Heavy industrial equipment has you covered bro.

youtu.be/LYKg0gbRFns

@King_Noticer @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran everyone likes the idea of feeding a pedo into the woodchipper, but no-one thinks about the job of cleaning out said woodchipper day after day

@sickburnbro @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I’ll be honest, I don’t really have it in me to be cruel like that

I’M TOO SOFT

@King_Noticer @sickburnbro @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I'd wager none of us do, despite all the shitposting and memes. Even people trained to do violence can loose sleep over ending somebody when it's completely justified, much less doing it in a cruel way.

@King_Noticer @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I mean, I didn't like the idea of killing rats and mice and now I'm a rodent killing machine. Once one of them bites you when you are trying to remove them from your domicile, it's a different game.

@sickburnbro @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I’m not a rodent killing machine

Hearing them struggle and squeal in those glue traps my dad used as a kid traumatized me

@King_Noticer @EssentialUtinsil @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran the glue traps aren't fun, but sometimes they can get trap shy, so glue it is.

When you find nibble marks all over stuff you go "god, I don't want to eat food that a mouse has been germing all over"

@sickburnbro @King_Noticer @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran yeah I've always thought the glue traps were kinda fucked up, but I've never had problems with regular traps.

@sickburnbro @King_Noticer @Zealist @Crux_Invictus @KryptoBlok @xianc78 @SuperLutheran I've had a few roosters that I didn't feel too bad about graduating to the freezer.