@LukeAlmighty You can say no to a trade, but a proletarian cannot not work. No work, no wage, no access to commodified goods, no house food, water and more

@moffintosh
Of course they can say no. As well as literally anyone can say no to them. (in an ideal capitalism that is...)

@LukeAlmighty

ideal capitalism

At which point I might as well wait for raining unicorns🤣

@LukeAlmighty Plus, no, tgat's still incorrect. If you have no capital to invest, then you are still forced to work for a wage even in an ideal scenario

@moffintosh
No. You don't have to agree to anything.
And others don't have to agree to help you. That is the entire point.

@LukeAlmighty

You don't have to agree to anything.

Oh, so does a wage equivalent magically appear in your hands then? How do I pay rent? How do I buy food? What about fuel?

@moffintosh
Well, noone has to give it to you.

That's the magic

@LukeAlmighty
And what happens when huge masses of desperate people are told "well, nobody has to give it to you?"

@moffintosh
In that case, some people can usually find an agreement.

You know... Some sort of a deal, where one side gets food, housing and extra money, while the other person gets a bit of a benefit too.

It's cooperation at It's best.
Or, they don't cooperate, no food is grown, no houses build, and everyone dies.

As it should be

@moffintosh
You're asking as if you never heard of it, yet you act weird when I explain the simplicity of the capitalism.

@LukeAlmighty Because you completely sleep over the social element. You seem to think that things being as they are means they're as they should for the simple reason that they are

@moffintosh
Yeah, because I still don't believe, that dictate by gun is a better alternative.

And I seriously hate people leeching off my hard work, because they believe to have right to my fucking life.

@LukeAlmighty

that dictate by gun is a better alternative.

Dude, the guns are already out, and have been for a long time. Just look at how modern private property was enforced with the enclosures and the millions of people shot all over the world. Or even at the state sponsored terrorism in italy to keep out the communist party from the goverment

And I seriously hate people leeching off my hard work, because they believe to have right to my fucking life.

So your in your ideal world you rent your labour power and get paid a fraction of what you produce? Very curious🤔

@moffintosh
> So your in your ideal world you rent your labour power and get paid a fraction of what you produce? Very curious🤔

Yes. If you don't understand the difference between:
A) a boss paying me for my work, and earning something himself.....
B) a gypsie single mom getting my money because a cop will kill me otherwise.

than, I seriously don't understand what world do you live in.

@moffintosh
So YES!!!
I do UNIRONICALLY like the idea of helping more people then just myself to make living possible.

I hope to bring more good to society then what I will use up.

@LukeAlmighty

A) a boss paying me for my work

*Paying you for less than it's worth

and earning something himself...

If they do. Company owners these days sre shareholders who have about 0 skin in the game, who's "passive income" is what you aren't paid

B) a gypsie single mom getting my money because a cop will kill me otherwise.

She's in the list to be sent to work imo. In a planned economy, the incetives are different from a market one, maximizing employment to reduce the avarage work day.
Free community kindergardens are also a tipical policy of any socialist country

@moffintosh
My work day would be 3 hours already, if it wasn't for the social programs though

@moffintosh
So, as soon as you stop paying the lazy assholes, we are in your goal.

@LukeAlmighty My boy, you seriously think the shareholders won't make you work more so they get a bigger cut? The more you work, the more value you generate, the more "passive income" they get.
Our entire economy is geared towards maximizing profit, with larger and richer buisnesses eating the weak. Even in the remote possibility that they have good heart, they must grow profits, extract more unpaid value, make you work for longer and/or harder

@moffintosh
And the argument is?

> modern private property was enforced
Proletariat detected

@corfiot @LukeAlmighty Imo, most of feudal society were farmers who shared common land to generate food and value for local consumption

@moffintosh @Corfiot
Wait...
And you think that's better then capitalism? worse then capitalism? Litera the same?

@LukeAlmighty @corfiot Nope. One of the fiew good things about capitalism is that it produces a shitload of stuff and innovates during it's non-monopoly period

Feudal society in northern europe was mostly to allow distributed power centres to defend against invading barbarians, be it from the north or the east. You'll notice that Byzantium, the Ottoman empire or eastern empires had compact huge armies they mobilized as necessary and were not feudal.

So no, the farmers were at the mercy of the local lord, who had a (well-designed) motive to keep them productive, i.e. at least not starving, so that he could conscript for his army, build his forts and defend his holdings. Of course, the central authority (kings) always took their piece.

So even though there was local consumption, this is hardly a benevolent, locally-sourced-vegetables, better-than-capitalism system.

@corfiot @LukeAlmighty Never said it was better imo. I just said that the common land of the pesants was liquited to construct capitalism with violence.

As for keeping them productive, well, that depends if the lord plans to have a huge army or not and whatever he wants to risk a pesant revolt

Peasants owned no land in feudalism. They were tenants of the lord.

@LukeAlmighty Oh, of course they always try to force a shitty agreement after shooting on the people. Great classic

@moffintosh
Ok.... or we can shoot each other, if that is the world you prefer, but I'm not sure why you even bring up such alternative.

@moffintosh
Yeah... because saying "no hiring quotas" is just impossible

@moffintosh
Well, you made a post, that makes it look like some kind of a new revelation.