@moffintosh
Why so surprised?
This is literally the entire point of an employment. Did you even read the employment agreement before you signed it? If yes, what part of this was supposed to be a new information?
@LukeAlmighty Lolberts tend to dispute stuff as "wage-slavery"
@moffintosh
As long as you can help your employer more money then you cost, he can "rent" you.
Come on man. That is primary school economics, and something your dad should have talked with you about before you choose what job you want to do for living.
@moffintosh
So, of course it's not slavery. It's a trade. A concept you don't believe in, but completely fine for a libertarian.
@LukeAlmighty You can say no to a trade, but a proletarian cannot not work. No work, no wage, no access to commodified goods, no house food, water and more
@moffintosh
Of course they can say no. As well as literally anyone can say no to them. (in an ideal capitalism that is...)
@LukeAlmighty Plus, no, tgat's still incorrect. If you have no capital to invest, then you are still forced to work for a wage even in an ideal scenario
@moffintosh
No. You don't have to agree to anything.
And others don't have to agree to help you. That is the entire point.
You don't have to agree to anything.
Oh, so does a wage equivalent magically appear in your hands then? How do I pay rent? How do I buy food? What about fuel?
@moffintosh
Well, noone has to give it to you.
That's the magic 
@LukeAlmighty
And what happens when huge masses of desperate people are told "well, nobody has to give it to you?"
@moffintosh
In that case, some people can usually find an agreement.
You know... Some sort of a deal, where one side gets food, housing and extra money, while the other person gets a bit of a benefit too.
It's cooperation at It's best.
Or, they don't cooperate, no food is grown, no houses build, and everyone dies.
As it should be 
@moffintosh
You're asking as if you never heard of it, yet you act weird when I explain the simplicity of the capitalism. 
@LukeAlmighty Because you completely sleep over the social element. You seem to think that things being as they are means they're as they should for the simple reason that they are
@moffintosh
Yeah, because I still don't believe, that dictate by gun is a better alternative.
And I seriously hate people leeching off my hard work, because they believe to have right to my fucking life.
that dictate by gun is a better alternative.
Dude, the guns are already out, and have been for a long time. Just look at how modern private property was enforced with the enclosures and the millions of people shot all over the world. Or even at the state sponsored terrorism in italy to keep out the communist party from the goverment
And I seriously hate people leeching off my hard work, because they believe to have right to my fucking life.
So your in your ideal world you rent your labour power and get paid a fraction of what you produce? Very curious🤔
@moffintosh
> So your in your ideal world you rent your labour power and get paid a fraction of what you produce? Very curious🤔
Yes. If you don't understand the difference between:
A) a boss paying me for my work, and earning something himself.....
B) a gypsie single mom getting my money because a cop will kill me otherwise.
than, I seriously don't understand what world do you live in.
A) a boss paying me for my work
*Paying you for less than it's worth
and earning something himself...
If they do. Company owners these days sre shareholders who have about 0 skin in the game, who's "passive income" is what you aren't paid
B) a gypsie single mom getting my money because a cop will kill me otherwise.
She's in the list to be sent to work imo. In a planned economy, the incetives are different from a market one, maximizing employment to reduce the avarage work day.
Free community kindergardens are also a tipical policy of any socialist country
@moffintosh
My work day would be 3 hours already, if it wasn't for the social programs though 
@LukeAlmighty My boy, you seriously think the shareholders won't make you work more so they get a bigger cut? The more you work, the more value you generate, the more "passive income" they get.
Our entire economy is geared towards maximizing profit, with larger and richer buisnesses eating the weak. Even in the remote possibility that they have good heart, they must grow profits, extract more unpaid value, make you work for longer and/or harder
@moffintosh
And the argument is? 
@LukeAlmighty That you would be better off not simping for capitalism
@moffintosh
Nah, that is the conclusion, that I know since the day I know you.
I was asking about the argument in your last post.
@LukeAlmighty Social orograms aren't the ones you should be angry about.
Plus, you should look at the recent history of tge west: neoliberalism bought with it massive cuts to social and public spending, yet people are working the same, or more than before
@moffintosh
> Massive cuts to social spending:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending_in_the_United_States
Wellfare + education + pension + healthcare = 61 percent.
Can I please get a source about how we are cutting this shit?
@LukeAlmighty Also, the mode of spending has also changed: while before goverments directly operated these ventures, nowdays they usually pay private companies, which cost more since they can't operate on deficit, and if competition is present, they must grow their profits.
Either that or they have to cheap out on expenses, which usually worsens the service
@moffintosh
I don't care what "public company" excuse does the government use. They still pay it from my money, and it still ends up in their pocket.
So again, I don't get your point about these thieves.
They still pay it from my money
And an even bigger cut goes to your employer, and you previously raised no issue there.
Public services need to be funded, and given how in capitalism private companies and capital have a drastic influence over the goverment, they get to choose how it's spent and on what.
Adding to that, taxation in the SU and other nations has always been minimal
it still ends up in their pocket.
Not really, expecially the last decades, goverments operate on deficit. Your money is going to pay some shareholder divedend god knows where (again)
@moffintosh
> Governments operate on deficit.
Man, you're testing my good will.......
@moffintosh
Ok, let me explain it again...
Politicians steal my money.
Some of the stolen money comes from taxes.
Some of the stolen money comes from "government debt" otherwise called money printing or inflation.
Both sources of stolen money is.... stolen fucking money that they keep.
@moffintosh
And again, I cooperate with my employer so both of us can be richer.
Government steals my money so they can get a single mother vote, and they are willing to kill me.
How the fuck can you even compare these things?
@LukeAlmighty What he has is the part of the wages he doesn't pay
Some of the stolen money comes from "government debt" otherwise called money printing or inflation.
That isn't debt😂
Printing and money supply is handled by the BCE, your goverment has to borrow money from private investors and banks. The BCE itself has lend the money to the banks beforehand.
The gov's debt is what it has to pay back to the private investors.
Inflation management by money supply is managed by the BCE.
@LukeAlmighty Really it's a neolib trick they deployed so that countries are even more bound to the financial markets than they were before. If the don't like you, they won't lend you shit, an you'll go bankrupt
@LukeAlmighty https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/opinion/reagan-social-welfare.html