@matrix There are probably also people who belong to none of these and call themselves that too, so its kind of meaningless these days

""modern witchcraft"" refers to the formation of witchcraft practices as far back as the enlightenment era so not many people even really use it to refer to theistic satanism

@Majkatsu @matrix There's a lot wrong with this post but it's so entertaining it doesn't matter and I doubt matrix really cares, I would definitely point out that a lot of modern occultism is Hermetic derived though, and that anything of that nature actually utilises Christian and Jewish imagery and invocations - though how respectfully they're invoked depends on the magician.

To answer Matrix's original post, this is why I spent that whole day picking a fight with witches.live - my theory was that none of them knew any meaningful magic and it was largely proved true. Some have some potential but squander it to focus on politics, some know a few very basic tricks that are basically psychology, and some have actually bothered to learn the names and motions but grasp none of the underlying stuff at all.

What surprised me was exactly as matrix supposed - most of them don't actually even *believe.* When I called them out on knowing no magic, almost all responded with sarcasm that clearly asserted: "of course I don't and neither do you, for magic doesn't really exist."

Politics is the death of magic within the questant, but posers are useful idiots, so it's not all bad.

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix
"I'm a witchy gal on a witchy instance"
"then hex me"
"pfffffffft hahahahahahahahhaha bro don't you know that magic isn't real???? you don't ACTUALLY believe in magic do you? sisters, look at this magic believing fool"

@waifu @druid @Majkatsu @matrix witch just means transbian with a PayPal account

@waifu @Majkatsu @matrix That's LITERALLY what happened except I also got called a Nazi

@waifu
>"hex me"
> looking up text converter
6d 65
@matrix @druid @Majkatsu

@druid @matrix Well idk what's wrong with what i said so i kinda wished you did correct me instead of just finding it more funny that im wrong or something

@Majkatsu @matrix I meant your comedic delivery was good

The wicca founder saying that seems to be an urban myth, like Crowley "dying in fear of the devil"

The satanist connection is so complex that I barely understand it myself, @yr has a better grasp of its chronology.

Either way, it's my understanding that only Left Hand Path practice meaningfully invokes specific opposition to the Christian (including satanic imagery), and tbh from what I'm seeing, most "serious" practitioners are Right Hand Path.

Just look at how the uninitiated assume, automatically, that asceticism and transcendence are inherent to spiritual practice as a whole.

Runa and me may be surprisingly "orthodox", but only for LHP!

@druid @matrix @yr Well I meant they are opposed to Christianity in the way satanism is, its a rebellious counter to it and it can't exist without it, the center is the self and there is no taboos

Meaningful or not is up to the perspective of the individual, im just saying that if you call yourself a witch, practice witchcraft as a theistic satanist, then you probably see satan as a patriarchal (as in paternal figure) figure and therefore stand ideologically opposite to Christianity and the patriarchal of Christianity (God)

I also just don't think that people do this in the 21st century very much anymore, it's just that "modern witchcraft" refers to stuff that isn't very modern in reality

I don't see why you would call yourself a witch in 2019 for any other reason than you practice witchcraft in some form (theistic, atheistic, or wiccan)

There is no reason to take the connotations other than because its a sign of rebellion (theistic) or a sign of deconstruction (athetistic) or because you view the connotations in a different way entirely that isn't related directly to satanism (wiccan)

Also i know the wiccan quote is misinformation but i say it anyway because that is totally why the guy did it

@Majkatsu @matrix @yr It probably is tbh

I'm just gonna leave the rest of this for Runa since she exposes herself to much more than I do and this is now highly dependent on popularity, trends and fads, and I don't keep up

@druid @matrix @yr I'm sure there is more nuance to it but I don't think it really matters that much anymore in an age where rebelling against Christianity is no longer seen as rebellious

@druid @matrix @yr In that sense, I guess that is why it's become such a meaningless term that people attach to

So I've basically answered why so many people use it and also are like.. bash the fash as well but dont actually believe in magic, just in a really roundabout way

@Majkatsu @matrix @yr Being "witchy" is basically just an aesthetic now, yes

@Majkatsu @matrix @yr True but as we've discovered, it's still rebellious among "serious" magicians because they all either love sucking Yahweh's dick or they're gnostic cowards

@Majkatsu @druid theistic satanism has never had much of a connection to witchcraft, beyond those adopting specific traditional practices in their craft. most theistic satanists are either luciferians or believe that "satan" is a symbol of eternal gnostic perfection, the formless chaos beyond the material world. what most of them have in common is that they are cult-based, largely secretive and goal-oriented (through action or art), unlike most modern "witches" which are solitary or who congregate in covens to hex the patriarchy.

most lhp practictioners in general keep to themselves and most material you will find is on boomer forums, nowadays by far the most popular strain is chaos magic and most of them do not really understand the breadth or depth of spiritual endeavour. i should point that old-school chaos magicians like TOPY often used satanic imagery simply because of its memetic power (greatly diminished today), for similar reasons to Crowley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoSe-QDjRhI

@yr @Majkatsu >believe that "satan" is a symbol of eternal gnostic perfection, the formless chaos beyond the material world.

This actually makes a bizarre kind of sense, to consider "satan" as a kind of "elemental chaos". Isn't that essentially what Padomay is?

I suppose within this analogy, their perception of it is probably more like Anu-Padomay though?

Either way, >managing to be gnostic about the most immediate and hedonistic deity in history

sasuga gnosticism

@druid @yr @Majkatsu

Still satan is the concept of chaos that is not order. Not the chaos beyond.
The gnostic symbol of satan is the contrast to the orderly god. A grid that is crooked upon reality, whereas reality is the thing beyond the grid.

So in my perception, satan is not Eris, at least not all the time. â¸ï¸

@bendersteed @Majkatsu @yr Then what allowance is made, in your worldview, for the "satan" (I appreciate we are deaing with a composite figure called by many names and to whom many things are attributed, that's actually integral to my question) who walks the earth and tempts mortal men? Of the "satan" who leads the ascetic off his path and into hedonism?

@druid @Majkatsu @yr

When you define the ascetic way, you define satan at the same time. His work is to break the definition, but it's dangerous to see his work as the new definition.

In a future or past society, or even is some group of people around us right now, "satan" is the ascetic way. What is expected to be true builds shadows of what else exists. So no contract is there in stone, because choices are made with what you choose to leave behind.

The thing is that the person and with them the society is still not able to choose their grids. When being able to do this magic becomes reality.

Aleister Crowley said that the basis of magikc is to "invoke often, banish often". That is, in my interpretation, let your mind and body time to realise how you can change the view on reality, because what you see is merely the grid you bestow upon it, and to experience it you have to experience and invoke the change of the grid.

In that sense satan is there when you feel that your grid is off, satan is tempting you to choose another grid.

@bendersteed @Majkatsu @yr Huh, this is quite a nice interpretation.

But to me, the main thing this conversation has done is point out just how many different mantles have been rolled into one being, largely by followers of Yahweh who wish to collectively demonise anything they oppose - including Freedom, since their stasis and submission causes them to seek establishment of eternal subjugation.

@druid @Majkatsu @yr Yeah, that's how they want to be reassured of their choices! So they just create mountains of ethos. The strange thing is this also happens to science/society views. Like people creating this kind of ethos when their happiness is at immediate stake.

@bendersteed @Majkatsu @yr Now we're certainly in agreement. It's the root of the classical "doubling down."

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix Magic isn't real lol.
But a bible.

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix I'm kind of surprised that witchesdotlive doesn't automatically block any instance that would let you on.

@p @Majkatsu @matrix They hadn't wised up to this one yet, since it's my personal instance!

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix And they...they talked to you instead of just blocking you immediately?

@p @Majkatsu @matrix Yep, for a whole day! Turns out tagging the admin f a "witch" instance and saying "You're a poser and nobody on your instance can do any magic, hex me and prove me wrong" is like challenging everyone in the saloon to a duel, except nobody has a gun and they all talk endlessly.

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix I should have called them fake witches instead of telling them that freedom was good.

Reminds me of a guy that I was trying to get to take a swing at me in high school. (Complicated reasons, but the guy that swung first was treated differently per the school's rules.) All my "I'm right here, come on! Where are you going? Coward!" didn't work, I did it for a week. Eventually I told him his shirt made him look gay, that's what did it. Football player in a rural town. He could take being called a coward, but being called gay set him off immediately. (The teacher actually bolted from the room when he started losing his shit.) "You guys are jackbooted authoritarians!" doesn't work on witches dot alive apparently, but "You aren't actually witches" does. I wonder what else works. (I can't imagine calling them gay would provoke them.)

Incidentally, Anna does tend to talk about nerds getting swirlies as their just comeuppance, so I figure either she was the swirly-dispenser or could not find fault in whoever was administering them.

@p @Majkatsu @matrix I loved this Pete memory! Thank you.

What is a swirly?

@druid @p @Majkatsu @matrix when you dunk someones head in a toilet and flush it

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix A swirly is sticking someone's head into the toilet and flushing. I think it's more of an apocryphal stand-in or a sitcom trope than a thing that actually happens. I think most bullying involves just hitting the other kid and sometimes embarrassing them instead of carrying out elaborate schemes to humiliate them in the men's room where no one can actually see.

Glad you liked it. The fight didn't go as well as planned.

@p @Majkatsu @matrix But you're here, and you doubtless learned something or other from it! You're the type who learns from anything.

@druid @Majkatsu @matrix I think I learned a few things. I have a chip in my orbital bone from that fight! Bitch-ass motherfucker hit me with a rock.

I didn't expect to win, but I did kind of expect a real fight. He turned tail when I got back up, too. I couldn't see straight and I probably would not have won a fair fight with this guy, but dude couldn't even do an unfair fight.

I STILL HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT THIS