@realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev I'm of the view that the extremes of left and right are just as bad as each other in terms of preaching hatred and intolerance, but it is better to let bad ideas die in the light than fester in the dark.

@Korsier @LemmyDev Yes, and that's why I joined #Gab. I'm just bit relishing diving into another alt-right community again, y'know?

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins You can't both-sides that. Left-wing extremists don't hate on the basis of factors out of someone's control (race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation), they're intolerant of the intolerant. How can you say hater haters are "just as bad" as those who hate natural characteristics outside of someone's control?

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev Wait so white people can change the color of their skin? 🤔 At least men can get fake vaginas, but while whiteness is a moral crime, ironically blackface is worse.

I'm sorry, the left's fixation on hatred mostly for things that can be changed is worse than the alt right, because it demands everyone conform to their narrow mindset, or be a racist deserving of assault or death. I don't think hatred on either side is valid, and I don't understand defending hatred.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins The left hates anyone who disagrees with or even questions their ideology, and their ideology is deeply rooted in race, gender, sexual orientation (i.e. intersectionality). I believe in the conservative idea of judging people based on their character because we're all a minority of one.

@Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev This entire discussion reminds me of this:

https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg

@Korsier @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev it's a perversion to take the liberal value of equal rights and income equality & create that reverse racism straw man, particularly at a time when income equality is still unachieved and blacks are twice as likely to fall victim to police brutality and even more disproportionately incarcerated.

@LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins @Korsier the idea of trusting people to judge others "based on their character" has failed, and conservatives have no remedial plan to correct that failure. Crying "reverse racism" clutches at straws to preserve a broken status quo. Of course the only real racists are those defending the status quo by calling their opposition what they themselves are guilty of.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @Korsier Oh I see. I'm a fan of fairness, not materialistic equality. We have different goals.

@realcaseyrollins @Korsier @LemmyDev fairness and income equality are not at odds -- these are mutually inclusive goals for liberals.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev Is it fair for everyone to make exactly the same income and have exactly the same amount of property when not everyone performs work of the same value? Is "reverse racism" (more properly defined as politically correct racism) against white people fair? Is hiring people based on skin color, not skill, fair? 🤔

I'm sorry, I just don't think discrimination is fair, friend. I think fairness comes when we * stop * discriminating against our fellow man.

@realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev @Korsier whether you control for equality of job and qualifications or not, there's a gender pay gap either way.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @Korsier true

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev if you pay everyone the same then what is the incentive to innovate or do hard work? No society has ever had equality anyway because we're not equal in interests or abilities.

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins Europe and most developed countries are performing far better than the US on income equality, and yet they don't have a problem with innovation or motivating people to work. In fact the few countries that have higher income inequality than the US are mostly 3rd worlds that have an innovation deficiency. https://data.oecd.org/inequality/income-inequality.htm

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev Again, having income inequality is one sign of a well-functioning society.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins European and OECD countries are more likely to have minimum wage laws. They still have income inequality. Those two things are in no way mutually exclusive. There's no way an IT professional and a cashier are making the same coin. The trade off paid for higher minimum wages is lower job opportunity, especially for those towards the bottom of the market (ie. It's harder to get a job).

@Korsier @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev it's a false dichotomy to suggest that having income equality is binary. It's a question of how much disparity is there. The US shows an extreme amount of income inequality compared to Denmark.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins I don't see how judging people based on their character has failed. Our society is organised around merit. The competent and hard working get to the top.

@Korsier @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev First of all, you're neglecting the Peter Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle). Also, merit is just one of many factors. Those other factors are responsible for the gender pay gap.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev Yep I agree on the gender pay gap, although I disagree that it excuses sexist laws. We seem to agree there is a problem here tho, so we have common ground on that issue, and that is nice.

I think we just disagree on where to solution to sexism can be found. You think it can be fixed through laws, I think it can be fixed through good parenting. (If you raise non-sexists, 1) they won't discriminate against men or women 2) they won't discriminate in ways that equal pay laws can't catch)

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev The primary causes of the gender pay gap are general differences in job interests between the genders (eg. Men are fast more likely than women to choose STEM fields, women are much more likely to choose social type occupations), men are more likely to work longer hours and be more committed to their job, and women take time out for child rearing. None of which indicates systemic sexism.

@Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev While this is true, it must be admitted that in certain sectors, such as Hollywood, there is a bit of a disparity.

@realcaseyrollins @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev You'll excuse me if I don't take women who make millions per year to do a glamorous job too seriously when they complain about how much they make.

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins I'm sensing cognitive dissonance, as you asserted earlier w/complete confidence: "Our society is organised around merit. The competent and hard working get to the top."

@realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev @Korsier Jeff Bezos net worth is $181.3 billion. Would you say his labor contribution is about equal to that of 3596295 avg. American incomes (who each earn $50,413 on avg)?

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev Jeff Bezos earns exactly the market value of his labour. That's how it works in a free market.

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins You changed from pay being comensurate with "merit" to pay being comensurate with "market value". Good correction. Note that "market value" is defined by what someone actually earns, so of course they're getting market value-- it's circular.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins None whatsoever. Highly paid actresses earn exactly what their labour is worth. And I'm also not sympathetic to their whining about how much they earn (which is in the tens of millions per annum).

@Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev Mm, no. The reason I point to them is that, yeah, lotsa people on the right can mess with numbers in a way that appears to get rid of sexist income inequality in most sectors, but in Hollywood, there are multiple, multiple instances of female co-stars being paid FAR less than their male co-stars, even if their roles in the film have the same importance.

@realcaseyrollins @Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev

Actors earn based on the crowds they draw. If the wages appear sexist then blame the public, because audiences determine Hollywood salaries

Supply and demand. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one

@AtlasFreeman @Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev Is that really true tho? I thought with the sexualization of women that a sexy woman would be a bigger draw than a sexy man.

@realcaseyrollins @Korsier @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev

Supply and demand. Finding someone "sexy" is a much easier task for a studio than finding someone who's acting can elevate the movie

I don't think most people pay to see a sexy face on the screen. They want to see a good movie

@AtlasFreeman @LemmyDev @Korsier @realcaseyrollins it's a false dichotomy to pit "sexy face" vs. "acting ability". The demand is for ppl to look the part (in addition to skill to the extent that the role calls for it). Incidentally a sexy face is the most popular casting requirement. Hence why hiring models and actresses is exempt from discrimination laws.

@realcaseyrollins @Korsier @LemmyDev @AtlasFreeman This is also why the job description for cocktail waitresses in Las Vegas is "modeling".

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev @AtlasFreeman

Yep. Yep. 100% agree. Lots of pretty actresses can't act, which we see in low budget films. However, lots of pretty actresses can REALLY act.

@realcaseyrollins @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev

The intersection of good looks and acting skills results in the highest wages.

Supply and demand.

@AtlasFreeman @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev True but what we're saying is that apex is lower than the equivalent male actor, in many if not most cases. That is all.

Women are being paid fairly comparatively to other women, that is not in dispute. But we're talking about in comparison to men.

@realcaseyrollins @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @Korsier @LemmyDev

"fairly"

Can we agree that Hollywood is greedy and opportunistic?

If women could draw crowds as large as those of their male counterparts, does anyone believe Hollywood would turn from that money?

@AtlasFreeman @LemmyDev @Korsier @realcaseyrollins when the intersection of the two factors is unnecessary, imposing the intersection (as the "free" market does in this case) limits the supply. Limiting the supply denies opportunities to otherwise suitable candidates. Vegas cocktail waitress gigs are good example of harm done by purist free market principles

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @Korsier @realcaseyrollins

"when the intersection of the two factors is unnecessary"

Who decides what's necessary? In a market, the customers do, and they've decided based on ticket sales.

It's fine if you don't like that, but that's how things work in free markets and in socialism and communism it just becomes the black market.

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins You're only explaining the gender pay gap on the studies that don't control for skill & qualifications. And in that case, it's wrong to imply a variation in interests when affirmative action programs have shown success in getting women into technical fields.

@realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev @Korsier on the studies that show a gender pay gap when skills and qualifications *are* controlled by the study, you're rationale does not apply.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins The flaw in your argument is that gender based differences in occupational choices is a well observed and understood phenomenon. You can't change that with affirmative action. High paying jobs tend to be either dirty, dangerous, highly technical or require rare talents, and men are just more likely to pursue those.

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev Also I doubt the Peter Principle applies in today's business world. We don't promote on seniority. It's all based on merit and your ability to deliver. It might still apply in some socialist type economies and some aspects of the public service but no way in modern private enterprise.

@Korsier @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins As someone who worked for a fortune 500 corporation, I can attest that the Peter Principle is in full force, and combined with an effect of social networking (those who play golf with the boss stand a better chance at promotion).

@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @LemmyDev @realcaseyrollins I've spent my life working in corporate. Useless people don't last, at least not in roles they're not suited to. I don't know who has time to go golfing but it sure isn't the productive people.

Hello, actual labourer here (16-20h in asphalt and/or concrete here). While I would argue no he hasn't contributed anything except perhaps paying for shit which contributes to the job market. I would argue most those fighting the 'good fight' against the rich haven't worked a hard day's labour either and contribute net 0 with all their activism... So... There's that.

@Korsier @LemmyDev Oh you mean #Fediverse!! Almost all of the instances I'm on support free speech! I was talking about the #Lemmy instances haha

@realcaseyrollins @LemmyDev Oh ok, sorry I thought Lemmy was just another instance. Well, there you go, you can learn something every day. 🙂