@Chizu @Spaghettimon So you admit your labor isn't worth what you demand and are just seething and coping

@matrix @Spaghettimon As a group, it is worth what you demand, and the companies exploit that fact to make massive profits while keeping their employees in the dark about what they're really worth to them. People only have context to what they're worth as an individual, not a group.
Why else do you think that talking about how much money you make is considered "taboo"? Do you really think the employees made that a thing?

@Chizu @Spaghettimon Ever heard of thing called envy? That's why it's a taboo.
Being public about how much people make is a double edged sword that can also be a detriment to the workers as the employers can go: "Why should I give you $20 when someone else is fine with $10?"

Again, if you think that you are so amazing and don't need boss, do it yourself, as an individual or a group. A group is just individuals exchanging labor.

@matrix @Spaghettimon
>Ever heard of thing called envy? That's why it's a taboo.

No, it's because your boss wants to get away with paying the minimum amount possible for each person, if people tell each other how much they make, their bosses will suffer since they will be forced to pay more or lose workers since people doing equivalent jobs will realise there is pay disparity.
It always works in the worker's favour to share how much you make.

@Chizu @Spaghettimon Is there a human emotion that isn't always productive? No, it's the capitalist being evil.
Most differences in pay are due to productivity and/or seniority. You aren't as amazing as you think you are.

No, it can be a double edged sword. It's the same with collective bargaining: "Why should I pay your group $20? I'm paying you all $12 and company X is paying just $10."

@matrix @Chizu "Why would i pay you enough to have a house when a homeless person will work for food"

@Spaghettimon @Chizu Yes, why?

@Spaghettimon @Chizu There isn't a single owner of muh means of production so you can sell it to a different one for what you think it's worth. If your labor is truly worth that much, the first guy that refused to pay well will loose money for not employing you.

@matrix @Spaghettimon Have you ever heard of price fixing?

@Chizu @Spaghettimon Yes, it's illegal and also gives incentive for new players to enter the market and undercut the fixed price

@matrix @Spaghettimon Except that labour has been price fixed for a long long time, just without an official agreement. The companies that don't price fix labour are few and high in demand so have no openings.

Fixed minimum wage is also really a form of price fixing, especially when it does not raise by inflation.

@Chizu @Spaghettimon Ah yes, every year the men with top hats and monocles get together in a smoke filled room and discuss at what price to fix labor at.

Are you making an argument against minimum wage?

@matrix @Spaghettimon Minimum wage should climb with inflation, as it is now in many places it does not.

@Chizu @Spaghettimon I agree with you here. It should either go up with inflation or not exist at all.

@matrix @Spaghettimon and that means it should catch up too, in the usa if it had kept up in the past it would be $30+ now

@Chizu @Spaghettimon I guess I forgot the specifics about US minimum wage. It can't be federal though since the US so big and diverse.

@matrix @Spaghettimon there is a federal minimum wage, ironically some states have a lower minimum wage than it but the federal one overrides it.
The federal one should be the baseline and it should creep up with inflation, and be caught up with where it should be, then the states can decide how much more they want it to be there.

@Chizu
No. Minimum wage needs to reflect the local economy, so the most the federal government should do is "If you don't set federal wage, you'll follow ours". It would be like trying to argue that Germany and Slovakia should have the same minimum wage,
From what I know it isn't unreasonable to ask for $30 to cover living expenses, but it is in Texas or Florida.
@Spaghettimon

@matrix @Spaghettimon That is what I'm saying, the federal minimum should be what it should be given the amount of time it has not increased on inflation, some places will probably need to have it higher, and having a higher minimum wage in areas where it doesn't need to be higher does not harm anyone.

@Chizu
That's why you can't have a minimum. Inappropriate minimum wage would destroy a lot of businesses.
@Spaghettimon

@matrix @Chizu @Spaghettimon this is also why they like immigration so much. people willing to accept worse pay or ideally people they can just deport if they get uppity.

@matrix @Chizu Employers will always pay the minimum they can, look at Elon and Nestlé employing literal slave labour

@Spaghettimon @matrix nestle is an unfair example, they're just the worst in every single possible way

@Chizu @matrix I don't think they're a bad example precisely because they are the worst and there is no consequence inside the system

In 2004 they won over a slavery lawsuit because, and I quote, "it didn't happen in U.S. soil"

@Spaghettimon @matrix I meant that its such a good example of a bad company that it's far far worse than any alternatives

@Spaghettimon
What's the US supposed to do about it though?
@Chizu

@Spaghettimon @matrix @Chizu ur a communist tho so you think slave labour is pretty based no?

@Mysha @matrix @Chizu No, to the opposite. We see slavery as being worse than current capitalism, and current capitalism as a variant of slavery

@Spaghettimon @matrix @Chizu i was joking partially

forced labor seems to be a favorite of alot of tankies and honestly is the "morally correct" equivalent to slave labor

also i just noticed ive been spelling labor like a brit 🤮

@Mysha @matrix @Chizu Communism throws away the idea of morality as it has no base in facts, going for ethics instead

The idea of communism (marxism here to be more precise) is that paying for time makes no sense, since the quality and the quantity of work made during a given amount of time may greatly vary from person to person and does not take the end result into consideration

So the paying (in which in a truly marxist community would be without money) would be based on your results. Besides that, by Marx, work ought to be a right, not a duty. One works if they want, with what they want and the only way for something to truly be a right is if it is not a need. That is, if you need to work to survive, society has turned it into a duty in which you're obligated to do something you don't want for a society you didn't ask to be a part of

@Spaghettimon @matrix @Chizu aeugh wall of text about communism so boring

@Mysha @matrix @Chizu I mean, it's a defined economic theory, it's to be expected

Also, I write in longform to pre-answer possible qeustions

Tl;dr tho:
Communism doesn't like forced labour

@Spaghettimon
That's just fucking retarded. Would you define a farmer tending his farm so he can eat a duty?
People wanting to work whenever however contradicts with always having enough to survive, thus somebody would have to fill in those gaps which would mean it actually becomes their duty and because they don't have the means reward that duty, boom, you have slavery.
@Mysha @Chizu

@Spaghettimon @Mysha @Chizu
Also what are you talking about? You already are paid for your work in most jobs, since you can't just sit there and do nothing. Companies also often have performance bonuses. You are just saying you don't want to honor a contract which is just lazy/scummy.
In jobs where you are paid by your time it's because there isn't another way. How do you pay a nightguard for their work? $50 for every trespasser they catch?

@matrix @Chizu Then why is it legal for old players to fix the price of your work?

@Spaghettimon @Chizu Because price of work isn't fixed

@matrix @Chizu Stuff is made right?

@Spaghettimon @Chizu What? Yes stuff is made.

@matrix @Chizu
>the first guy to no pay you well will lose money
We are hostage to them due to hunger. If they treat their employees to nicely they won't make as much profit and their company will be worth less being eventually bought out by someone who didn't treat the employees as nicely, since they had more profit

Just look at how many ppl died working for Elon or Bezos, the richest ppl on Earth

@Spaghettimon @Chizu
So they should just hold someone else hostage to produce food so you don't go hungry?

If they treat their employees nicely the employees will be more productive and less people will want to work for the competitor.