@mewmew @realcaseyrollins

well, I clarify that by saying they are anti-abortion. once the baby is delivered, they don't give a shit anymore.

@kaniini @realcaseyrollins GOP is anti-abortion as pure virtue signalling. if they actually wanted to reduce abortion, they would support better access to sex education, contraception, etc.

@mewmew @realcaseyrollins oh, definitely. it's just yet another form of grift.

@mewmew @kaniini @realcaseyrollins >nooo don't get abortions
>but we're going to make birth control not covered by health insurance
The politicians are just getting paid off by big pharma at this point. It's not even against the bible to get an abortion

@cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins well yeah. anti-abortion Christianity is also virtue signalling imo but that's another matter.

@mewmew @kaniini @realcaseyrollins Like 90% of Republicans claiming to fight for christian values have never read the book, they're only doing it to get the votes of actual worshippers (since they used to be the majority in america)

@cirno @realcaseyrollins @kaniini @mewmew exaggeration or do you think its actually as high as 90%?

@Locksmith @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins No, I deadass think it's 90%. I don't even think most go to church

@cirno
I mean I'm strongly anti-abortion (#prolife) but y'all make great points about the #GOP opposing contraception, esp. the religious right.

The fringer segments of the religious are particularly peculiar on this. They are against sex ed in schools, fine, but don't seem to be for parents actually teaching them valuable things about sex and the various ways it's done and protections. They want to ban abortion, which again is a laudable goal, but tell people "don't have sex" instead of steering them towards methods of birth control that don't kill a fetus (preventative birth control, I think it's called)! Like we aren't dang Catholics! Opposing all birth control is * not * biblical.
@mewmew @kaniini

@realcaseyrollins @cirno @mewmew

i think actual sex ed and universal contraception are preferable to abortion, but women must have the right to bodily autonomy. anything less is not true conservatism (because the State is restricting rights).

@kaniini @realcaseyrollins @cirno @mewmew Sorry for interrumpting your talk 😅. I personally think both are needed, sex education specially. Here in México things are not going well in abortion ways, for some reason people thinks that girls are going to abort two times a week or something.

@kaniini
That's total bull; ignoring the bodily autonomy argument (in regards to abortion), Conservatism restricts rights all the time. If you're going to provide ultimate rights and bodily autonomy for all, you would need either a libertarian or anarchist state.
@mewmew @cirno

@realcaseyrollins @mewmew @cirno

while it is arguable that an abortion violates the non-aggression principle toward the unborn fetus, the State is violating the non-aggression principle by encumbering the mother's bodily autonomy.

defense of an unborn child which is not sentient (childhood sentience in fact does not develop until age 2 or 3) would be imposition of the State based upon a values judgement.

that is a political position, but it is not a conservative one. all violations of the non-aggression principle are authoritarian in nature.

@kaniini @realcaseyrollins @mewmew >childhood sentience does not start until 2 or 3
I think that's an incredibly dangerous (and incorrect) line of thinking. I'd rather not normalize "post-birth" abortions. For me, any time during the first trimester is reasonable

@cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins in China they do forth trimester abortions

@mewmew @kaniini @realcaseyrollins lul

@mewmew @cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins That's literally infanticide.

@cirno @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins I'm still trying to abort myself at 21, is it too late?

@VentGrey @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins God wouldn't approve

@cirno @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins I don't need his approval

@VentGrey @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins You do if you want to enter his kingdom

@cirno @kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins I'd rather pay :B

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

neurologically speaking, a newborn is not yet sentient. the primary decision-making loop that enables sentience, the "default mode network" as it is called, is not fully established yet.

i agree that is not justification for changing laws relating to abortion -- like in all cases where the NAP is violated for one or more parties -- there must be regulatory balance to protect both parties.

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins Even so, it varies from child to child. It's not something you can actually quantify. And I'd argue a baby being able to say "mama" counts as sentient in my book

@cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins I know some adults who are not sentient. e.g. Marco Rubio, that man is literally a robot

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

you can make a dog come by shaking a box of dog treats, but that does not mean the dog is sentient.

sentience has a specific definition, and is dependent on feedback loops that *do not exist* in newborns. newborns spend most of their existence sleeping, building neurological feedback networks in the brain.

a dog cannot be sentient because they do not have a neocortex. similarly, a newborn is still developing the neocortex and related signaling paths at birth.

this, of course, does not mean that abortion access should be changed to allow post-birth euthanasia.

it does, however, mean that while a baby does have the ability to feel pain, it does not actually have the capacity to process pain in the way that children who have a fully established DMN do.

which means that the "pro life america" billboards are inaccurate.

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins >babies don't process pain in the same capacity

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins Forgot link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damage

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

the lack of ability to mediate processing of pain cuts both ways, it can certainly cause developmental trauma that has psychological outcomes.

but, these outcomes are related to processing deficiencies, there is no "episodic" traumatic event such as in PTSD because PTSD is an interaction with the DMN.

anyway, circumcision is bullshit and violates the non-aggression principle too. in this case, the State should prohibit violence inflicted by the parent or doctor.

@kaniini @cirno @realcaseyrollins I could rant about circumcision far more then anyone here would care to hear

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins And yes, I agree that circumsion as a whole is wrong. It's also largely a ploy by big pharma since they're harvested and made into women's anti-aging cream under the guise of "cleanliness"

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

(incidentally, the lack of the DMN is why nobody has memories of childhood before being a toddler. the DMN is what enables episodic memory.)

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins Going back to the argument, I feel as if killing a dog is wrong and so is killing a baby. Despite any studies on neocortex development. Humans should have morals, and those morals shouldn't depend on if certain parts of the brain are "developed enough".

Hell, I don't even see why this conversation is happening, or what you're trying to prove here. You're trying to prove why babies don't "count" yet you don't support post-birth killing. So why the talk on neuroscience?

@cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins dogs and pigs are about as intelligent, are you opposed to killing them too?

@mewmew @kaniini @realcaseyrollins Yes

@cirno @kaniini @realcaseyrollins that's fair then.

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

oh, the point is that "pro life" people claim that first-trimester fetuses somehow have sentience. maybe you do not live in the US or have not seen the "pro life america" billboards, but they are FUD from a neuroscience perspective.

as i said, first-trimester abortion is a good compromise that protects autonomy while ensuring a viable fetus has the potential to become a child.

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins I agree on the compromise on first trimester abortion

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins @cirno I've been pro-choice for most of my life, but I was pro-life for a brief Christian period. Caitlin Flanagan has done a lot of interesting journalism in this field and I like her take. It is a child. You can see it, and you have to realize pro-lifers aren't wrong in thinking that. At the same time, more women die when abortion is illegal. If something goes wrong, they were afraid to see a doctor for fear of getting charged with a crime

@djsumdog @mewmew @realcaseyrollins @cirno

> It is a child.

are eggs chickens? not until they become chickens.

a fetus is certainly capable of becoming a child, and past some point, should be guaranteed that potential. but, until it has developed into a viable fetus, it is not a child -- several things have to develop before a fetus becomes viable.

@cirno @mewmew @realcaseyrollins

besides, "choose life: your mother did" is a more effective message for anyone who respects the sanctity of life.

@kaniini @mewmew @realcaseyrollins I think morally, a women should carry it to term since it's the potential for another soul to come into this world. If financially unstable, putting the child up for adoption. That said I do believe a lot of foster homes to be under developed so I'm not sure how viable that is an option, though I'd argue just about any foster child you ask would rather be alive than not

@realcaseyrollins @cirno @kaniini yeah.

I don't like abortion either, hardly any Democrat does. However, making it illegal only makes it more dangerous, desperate people will still try to get them. Having the procedure be safe, legal, and rare is the goal here.

@mewmew @kaniini @realcaseyrollins Like seriously. Women don't get off to getting abortions or anything and it ruins their bodies and the odds of them having stillborns after skyrockets. If every teen could readily get birth control then even the horny dudes too scared to buy condoms wouldn't do shit when their pullout game is weak as fuck

@wolfie @realcaseyrollins but that's the point, both have the same actual ideal world is one of a corporatocracy. the rest is PR.

@wolfie @realcaseyrollins corporatocracy is, incidentally, not compatible with true conservatism, as it undermines market freedom.

@kaniini @realcaseyrollins Oh, I don’t know, they do tend to have some minor differences in the precise form their ideal State takes. The anti-gun thing of the “left” vice the anti-… not sure what to call it. Not really sex thing but whatever one wants to call it.. on the “right” for instance

@wolfie @realcaseyrollins mostly trivial differences though. both are authoritarian regimes with corporations in control.

@kaniini @realcaseyrollins Hard to argue that