xianc78
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I'm a little late to this, but I feel the need to mention it because I feel like these people are just going to move to Telegram, if they already haven't.

Telegram is NOT a better alternative to Discord. It asks for your phone number (huge red flag), lies about being end-to-end encrypted (encryption is done server-side), is centralized, and not entirely FOSS (server-side software is closed source). Look into decentralized/self-hosted solutions instead.

I personally recommend hosting an XMPP server. Install an XMPP server stack that supports multi-user-chats and host your discussions there. With XMPP, you can sign up for an account on any server and talk to anyone, including people from other servers. There are even modernized web-clients like Movim which make it more user friendly.

For private/direct messages, you can also end-to-end encrypt them using OMEMO. Just don't use them for public MUCs or you will end up having problems. You really don't need to encrypt a public chat anyway.

If you need help running an XMPP server, Mental Outlaw made a video on it.

invidious.poast.org/watch?v=Ot

Really, even an IRC channel or an AJAX webchat/shoutbox is better than Discord or Telegram.

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kirby
@xianc78 IRC or bust, xmpp is somehow a disaster when it comes to managing groups easily
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The Final Maijaning :cig:
@kirby @xianc78 works on my machine
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@straw @xianc78 @kirby Yeah nah I'm with kirby here, MUCs are a disaster, especially if the group owners insist on using OMEMO for them
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xianc78

@allison @straw @kirby Why would you need to encrypt a public chat?

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@xianc78 @straw @kirby If you have things going on there that you wouldn't want your server admins or other casual interlopers seeing. Credit where credit is due, I think Matrix's implementation of E2EE works a lot better for this than OMEMO MUCs, although to be fair that's kind of a low bar.
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
matrix is much better than xmpp by far
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kirby
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison man if only the mainline server wasnt such a memory hog, id even host it myself if it were ez
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
i use conduit.rs
it's fine, but it might require some rooms downgrade their versions
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kirby
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison hmm, i wonder if i can host it on top of mashtodon?
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
brobably
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kirby
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison itd be funny, can i use a domain i already host services on
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
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kirby
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison ill try it later then.
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Q.U.I.N.N.
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison @kirby matrix is a protocol cursed beyond all recognition though :blobcatpain:
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
as a user, it's fine, idk the details though
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Fawty
@mischievoustomato @icedquinn @straw @xianc78 @allison @kirby It's mostly fine on a normal server, when people don't update it properly and try to do extra stuff I think it sucks then
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Q.U.I.N.N.
@f_o_u_r_t_y @straw @xianc78 @allison @kirby @mischievoustomato there's some rather long lists on why the protocol is fucked, except this time with substance. (the original one about why it was fucked just amounted to the author handwaving about israel)

https://anarc.at/blog/2022-06-17-matrix-notes/
https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07

its a really bad protocol and upstream is too busy switching to open core models and rent seeking to fix shit like "json signatures dont actually work across servers because we are bad at our jobs"
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
well, something i've come to realize is that all decentralized/open source messaging apps suck in one way or another
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Q.U.I.N.N.
@mischievoustomato @straw @xianc78 @allison @kirby @f_o_u_r_t_y xmpp works fine its just clients being dumb about it.
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pepikutan :capoo2:
@mischievoustomato @icedquinn @straw @xianc78 @allison @kirby @f_o_u_r_t_y everything sucks but at least on the open source side of things you have options
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
if gnome didn't exist I'd be upset though
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
no idea...
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Nigbot
NIGGA DIS HERE'S BURGER KING RIGHT HERE NIGGA-ASS NIGGA FUCK YOU ON SOME BITCH SHIT FO :yotsuba_cope:
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xianc78

@kirby @straw @allison @mischievoustomato That's why 90% of it's users use the main server. It's just the mastodon.social situation all over again.

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@xianc78 @kirby @straw @mischievoustomato You're overlooking the genuinely massive amount of "dark" Matrix servers/userbase but yes overall there is a little bit of a centralizing effect going on there, and in general Matrix servers are much more willing to defed from each other than XMPP ones
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Arcana :hearteye:
@allison @straw @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato Matrix servers can defed?
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affine
@allison @straw @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato wait matrix servers can defed?
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@affine @straw @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato Yeah and a lot do because again, much of the userbase is genuinely worse than even those corners of fedi.
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affine
@allison @straw @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato But by "defed" do you mean a completely non-federating setup, or a selective blocklist? I thought Matrix can't do the latter?
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@affine @straw @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato I think you can only defed at the server level, like if you're matrix.org and you want to block (say) plan9.rocks
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xianc78

@allison @affine @straw @kirby @mischievoustomato Does anyone else feel like this whole "defed culture" is just a psyop by big-tech to make decentralized networks broken and unusable?

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@xianc78 @affine @straw @kirby @mischievoustomato Maybe, maybe not. I do think a lot of it is organic but the results certainly don't hurt big tech in terms of the centralizing pressures they end up exerting. (censorship on the big platforms on the other hand, yeah, that's absolutely 100% a psyop)
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Pawlicker 🐾😹
@xianc78 @allison @affine @straw @kirby @mischievoustomato I wonder which flag colors are behind this?
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Q.U.I.N.N.
@xianc78 @allison @affine @straw @kirby @mischievoustomato there was a stated goal about "internet ghettos" but i don't have the papers on hand
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The Final Maijaning :cig:
@allison @xianc78 @kirby @mischievoustomato yeah matrix has non-federating deployments fucking everywhere even on the clearnet. replaces older forum chatroom methods on many sites. better than web irc or something ig
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The Final Maijaning :cig:
@allison @kirby @mischievoustomato @xianc78 thought its kinda a pain in the ass like uh have an irc or something i dont wanna have to log in to some different accoutn everytime i wanna hop on the thp chat or smth
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Nozahagmelons
it also sucks

I've been too busy to work on my thing, though
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xianc78

@allison @straw @kirby I've heard some shady things regarding the founder of Matrix, like him being partnered with the World Economic Forum.

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@xianc78 @straw @kirby Say what you want about Klaus Schwab, at least he isn't a /g/ user
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The Final Maijaning :cig:
@xianc78 @allison @kirby it was literally created by a mossad shell
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Johnny Peligro 🧊 :archlinux:
i am yet to join a muc, but just from talking to people directly on xmpp i've had issues. tf
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xianc78

@mischievoustomato @straw @allison @kirby Not many people use it for MUCs, but the Tails GNU/Linux distro uses an XMPP room instead of an IRC channel.

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kirby
@straw @xianc78 flashbacks to the time waifu tried to move the botte clob to some other server and some people didnt appear as added when they were added and some ppl couldnt see messages and it was all a giant disaster @waifu
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fuerzas del cielo

@kirby@mashtodon.alterracloud.com @straw@comp.lain.la @xianc78@gameliberty.club xmpp is a pain to set up, the clients are bad and it doesn't work when you want to, matrix is cuter but its so bloated its not even worth it, wish there was something good, but there just isn't

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Q.U.I.N.N.
@waifu @xianc78 @kirby @straw it isn't particularly hard to set up prosody. maybe a bit more than it should be. (the newer go projects got it right with just running the process and having a setup screen or somesth.)
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fuerzas del cielo

@icedquinn@blob.cat @xianc78@gameliberty.club @kirby@mashtodon.alterracloud.com @straw@comp.lain.la nah fam i have installed it and its a mess, i don't want to touch it again

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affine
@kirby @xianc78 flashbacks to Conversations not letting someone join a group because one member was a deleted account which couldn't be reached for OMEMO keys.
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Q.U.I.N.N.
@kirby @xianc78 i don't mind irc. i think it would be neat if we had like.. psyc-over-cbor, which basically fixes IRC, but its unlikely to ever happen.
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@xianc78 There is one aspect in which Telegram is better than Discord, which is that the flagship client is GPLv3, feature complete, and well supported (at nearly complete feature parity) on every desktop operating system I actively use save ancient relics and 9front. However, in general, it's still not a great idea to entrust all of your social connections to Telegram and I recommend using free alternatives if and whenever possible.
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SAKURARadiochan
@allison @xianc78 discord kind of sucks and I wish it was just a prettier IRC
telegram is for eastern europeans
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xianc78

@SAKURARadiochan @allison Telegram is for tech-illiterate right-wingers who only feel for it because their favorite podcaster uses it.

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xianc78

@SAKURARadiochan @allison *fell for it

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@xianc78 @SAKURARadiochan I use it for pretty much the reasons I mentioned upthread + stickers + a lot of my friends are there (I'm not a far right ideologue I swear)
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SAKURARadiochan
@allison @xianc78 you're sure you're not from eastern europe
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@SAKURARadiochan @xianc78 Nope, Portland Oregon. If it was 10 years later I probably would have ended up as some Antifa type.
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@SAKURARadiochan @xianc78 (that being said, I live in Detroit Metro now which can sometimes be mistaken as Eastern Europe by the untrained eye)
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SAKURARadiochan
@allison @xianc78 in the right areas yes
in other areas it looks like gaza city before the war broke out
in other areas it looks like gaza city today
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@SAKURARadiochan @xianc78 Curious, where does Hamtramck fall on this?
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SAKURARadiochan
@allison @xianc78 it's where eastern europe meets bangladesh
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