ToTK and how it contradicts the lore of the series along with thinking about how complicated the lore the series already was post WW had me thinking:
Zelda really had some charm that was lost in Ocarina of Time and even more by the time of The Wind Waker. The first four games prioritized gameplay over story, and the story that was there wasn't some over convoluted mess of a lore like it is now. And while there were technically multiple Links in those games, it wasn't apparent at the time. For all we knew, the series was about a single hero and his multiple adventures in Hyrule and surrounding regions.
Part of me wishes that the series stayed simple. None of this convoluted lore, half-baked story over gameplay, ship-bait female characters, etc. Just fun, top-down, action-adventures with RPG and Metroidvania elements, and just have it be about a single hero and his many adventures.
Seriously, just looking at modern Zelda and it's fanbase, it's mostly just shipping and debating about the lore of the series. The latter isn't bad by any means. The former is, however, and even then, it feels like most people don't even care about the gameplay. Like all the praise that OOT gets is just how "emotionally impactful" the story is when it is really just the same "coming of age" story where a character realizes that they are not who they thought they were, and the gameplay is just ALTTP in 3D.
@RehnSturm256 If you thought SS was bad, you will really hate ToTK because it somehow made it even worse.
I think the whole downfall timeline was created because OOT was essentially a soft-reboot of the series. It was a prequel and introduced so many recurring elements that weren't present in the games before it. They probably felt the need to justify why they weren't there in the previous games by having them in a separate timeline.
I was also hesitant to play BoTW, but that's because it always felt like a generic open-world survival game with a Zelda skin on top of it. It seemed like every other game was becoming open world after people got sick of the linear corridor shooters.
I haven't seen much of it, but it feels like they became a victim of their own success and just did BotW with a gimmick:tm: rather than actually bothering to iterate (and BotW needed iteration upon.) Which sucks because now they'll just shit out BotW with a gimmick:tm: games for the next twenty years instead of actually maybe making something good.
b e a r d
@idiot @xianc78 @RehnSturm256 i think that tears of the kingdom makes breath of the wild look like a tech demo. it's much more expansive and there's really no reason to play botw, at all.
i do like how it went back to miyamoto's original idea for the series though, just exploring and finding little secrets and such all the time. totk does a much, much better job at that than botw did as well.
i also actually really love skyward sword though hahaha, the music is amazing, i love the graphics, i actually really like the story and how it did add a lot of extra expanse to the lore that was pretty intriguing and made other games in the series seem more deep than they originally were. that last bit is what tears of the kingdom really failed to do, instead just kind of throwing it all away and kind of making a mockery out of it in some ways. they could have added so much context but instead were just like "ehhhh whatever just make some new shit based on old shit."
@idiot @xianc78 @RehnSturm256 (and yes, i even like the motion controls in SS, i think they're actually done pretty well and in hindsight believing journalists that they were bad was pretty funny)
@beardalaxy @idiot @RehnSturm256 I didn't mind the motion controls either. Even as a left-handed person, I'm perfectly comfortable swinging a sword with my right-hand, but with that said, it meant that this Link was canonically right-handed and I always loved how Link was a southpaw. It made him more relatable to me.
@xianc78 @idiot @RehnSturm256 it is pretty unfortunate to see link no longer being a lefty. interestingly, breath of the wild was originally going to have motion controls as well and that's why link's right handed. they couldn't just make him left handed for the sequel all of the sudden. it makes me wonder if the next major zelda game will have link as a lefty again.
@xianc78 @beardalaxy @idiot several big Wii games from around that time didn’t suffer from gameplay, but in story and reworking the series. Not only Skyward Sword, but Metroid Other M for the Metroid series 
Both prequels that told too much, and ruined the whole series for me. But that’s just me.
Although now I’m hearing that BotW is thrown away for the sake of TotK? Um, so any good things I liked about BotW in story or themes doesn’t matter? Man, I hate that, what’s the point of it all? 
i didn’t want to approach the series with the mentality that “nothing matters, turn off brain and enjoy good gameplay”.
@RehnSturm256 @xianc78 @idiot yeah that's totally understandable. i still really fuckin love the game, i'm having a great time with it still and i've definitely put in well over 100 hours at this point. i don't want it to end, i want to keep exploring and finding cool stuff. i still have like 60 shrines to complete lol.
@RehnSturm256 @xianc78 @idiot it's just that the story sucks, but the story was never meant to be a huge part of the game anyway. it's a lot different if you have a game like the last of us and the story sucks, because the story is the main draw of the game and the gameplay is just kind of there to make it a game instead of a movie. zelda is a game first and foremost, and a really fun one at that.
@beardalaxy @xianc78 @idiot yeah, I’m probably gonna get TotK 
i am sold on BotW, and if the sequel builds upon it, all the better. I’ll just…try not to look into the memories or story too much 
abd maybe one of these days I’ll play Skyward Sword, and get a better understanding of how it ties in to the games. Maybe I’ll actually like it 
@beardalaxy @idiot @xianc78 i think Zelda was better the less that was said about the lore. If a game tries to be a distant sequel to another is one thing, like WW and OoT, but the prequel thing and Fi and Demise was not to my preferences, because it cemented too much lore for a series in which each game tried to have its own identity. Now, no matter what a game does, it is always tied back to SS’s events. Set in stone. I dislike this 
maybe if SS had the greatest story ever told I’d be more receptive to it.
@xianc78 BotW is totally just like that open world Zelda skin. Now, I think it is well made as Nintendo’s first real open world game, but i wonder if that’s thanks to MonolithSoft who worked with them on the game’s world design. I think it’s fun, but I think there’s a debate to be had whether it’s a good ZELDA game, because it sure altered the identity.
@RehnSturm256 @xianc78 alright so i hate the downfall timeline's existence too, but i think it is worth noting that with the development of ocarina of time, that's when they had kicked the whole timeline thing into motion. we just didn't know about it until the hyrule historia came out. it was in the works for a while, although nothing super solid was planned out they knew pretty early that there would be a timeline split after ocarina of time and how those pieces would fall.
and that's not true about ganondorf and demise's relationship at all. the english translation makes it seem like it is demise reincarnating into ganondorf, but in actuality the curse just ties demonkind to hylia's reincarnation (zelda) and whoever possesses the hero's spirit at the time (link). it's not even necessarily a curse, but more of a promise. hylia was already going to be passed down throughout zelda's bloodline, and the hero is more of an archetype than an actual reincarnation or anything, so demise is just promising that demonkind will always plague hyrule, with his defeat.
this is why there are games that feature a villain that isn't ganondorf but is still a demon of some kind, or use demonic powers, including trying to bring back ganon (who is ganondorf, just in demon form, and it's always been that way).
ganondorf is a super evil dude, but he is also a demon. the demon king, in fact. he is, for the vast majority of the games, NOT a recurring soul and never was. he's the same dude from ocarina of time all through twilight princess, to wind waker, and in every single game in the downfall timeline he appears in. always the same guy. the only ones that are different are four swords adventures and, probably, tears of the kingdom (unless FSA and BOTW are more connected than we think, because the dark world and shadow link are a result of that ganondorf's malice funny enough). those both turn into ganon at some point though too, being literally referred to as the demon king in tears of the kingdom, so he is a recurring character but i think it's more of a brand familiarity thing for the most part, than it is a serious reincarnation thing going on, especially because there are probably countless other gerudo guys that weren't evil and many that were probably named ganondorf. it's like zelda being named zelda all the time, like there have to be some princesses that aren't named zelda but then wtf would you call the game? legend of anise?
@beardalaxy @xianc78 the thing about Demise is that Aonuma or whoever said he purposefully gave him orange hair to tie him in with Ganondork. So yeah it’s not “hereditary” as in giving birth to him but it might as well be. Ganon’s Demon King moniker was a thing before Skyward Sword, no longer after, because he literally got demoted lore-wise thanks to Demise.
@RehnSturm256 @xianc78 well yeah there's one thing tying the characters together with visual design, to show that they are both bad guys in the series and that they're demons. i mean yuga and malladus (who is also given the title of "demon king") have red hair too. crazy red hair = bad guy.
the demon king moniker was used for ganon still after skyward sword. a link between worlds uses it i believe and now so does tears of the kingdom. that's 2 of the last 4 (new, real) zelda games to come out after skyward sword.
@beardalaxy @RehnSturm256 Still sounds like a curse to me. Three souls are destined to repeat the same story just with slight variation until the end of time (assuming the Zelda universe is finite). It's actually pretty tragic.
And it ensures that every Zelda story (with a few exceptions) has more or less the same plot. It's why I love Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask for trying something different.
TotK spoilers, rant
@xianc78 the story of TotK is okay taken on its own if you haven't ever played another zelda game. it does a lot of what oot did but worse in some areas. Time travel, sages with special stones, master sword being repaired for a super long time in a holy place, Ganondorf swearing fealty to the king of Hyrule and then stabbing him in the back. They reuse the term "imprisoning war" and puppet zelda. It's kind of uninspired when you already know the rest of the lore.
But then you realize that even without all of that borrowing, in terms of lore it is the actual opposite of fan service. Nobody has any fucking idea what's going on. There is so much that conflicts with other stuff that has been established. The story is a major letdown, with only a few key moments that are actually really cool and more unique, like Zelda turning into a dragon or there actually being a 5th sage you need to recruit.
I think going with the whole memories thing again was a huge mistake. The story should have been unfolding while we played instead of stuck in the past again. The story is easily the worst part of the game and might even be the worst in the franchise. It treats breath of the wild particularly poorly, to the point where I don't even recommend people play botw anymore, just play TotK instead. Like, the historical events from botw where they had that battle with calamity ganon 10,000 years ago with all the guardians and divine beasts is never even mentioned. TotK doesn't respect botw's established lore at all.
The good parts of the story are also kind of outweighed by other things in the zelda lore, and it is clear that Nintendo wanted you to not take any of that into account because it throws the timeline away when talking about where botw takes place. All the previous games are just "legends of the distant past." The messaging is mixed up though, because they also throw in a lot of fan service in with things like the temple of time, the names of areas using names already from the series, clothing items and weapons from completely different timelines, the divine beasts named after oot sages but also one wind waker sage for some reason, the plaques that talk about princess ruto in zora's domain, etc... Nintendo wants you to forget about the past games' lore, but it doesn't let you because all this stuff is still named after things that happened in the lore.
TotK takes what was already a messy, but definitely understandable, timeline and just kind of shits all over it. They could have had something going if they walked things back to botw's story but instead it is a brand new thing.
OoT through Skyward Sword (minus MM) all did so much work in establishing all of this lore and making it all fit together pretty well. They had a really good thing going so it's pretty sad to see all of that tossed out the window. Wind Waker was the first time we really got to see Ganondorf fleshed out as a person instead of just some evil dude and that never got explored again.
That being said, the game is still ridiculously fun and I love it. As a Zelda lore guy though, it is pretty damn bad. I'd prefer something like a sequel to Spirit Tracks that takes place in a more modern era (1900s-1980s) where pretty much the only thing anyone knows about is that the city name New Hyrule came from some old kingdom that got flooded forever ago, then you slowly piece things together when ancient evil arises.
TotK is also still missing shit like the Triforce. Just really, really bad in the story department if you've played any other zelda game.
@xianc78 some zelda games have this thing going where the game itself reflects where the franchise is at the moment, and how the devs feel about it. Ocarina of Time is a coming of age story right as video games were sort of "coming of age" where they were making the jump to 3D. Majora's Mask is an allegory to the game dev cycle for the game, where they had a limited time to make it and were under lots of pressure to do so. Wind Waker is all about courage and trying something daunting, but new and exciting, which is heavily reflected in the change of art direction and more open approach to the world.
Knowing all of this, it kind of leaves a bit of a sour taste in the mouth for the Switch Zeldas. They're both about starting over and forgetting everything you knew. Your past life is gone and things are different now, but there is still a facsimile of that previous life still hanging on, just enough that you can keep your former identity.
@xianc78 TotK reminds me of kingdom hearts 3 in a way, where the fans were waiting for so long to get all these answers to their questions, but basically nothing was answered, more questions cropped up, and there is still not a feeling of closure.
If I have to wait another 6-7 years for a mainline zelda game and it has the same exact approach as the last ones I'm gonna be pretty peeved.
In each of these games it basically ignored everything that came before it.
Skyward Sword rewrites the whole story with Hylia, Demise, Fi, etc.
BotW ignores all of the timeline stuff and seemingly mentions all of the past games.
TotK doesn't mention BotW because they didn't want people who only played it to be left out. They also rewrite the founding of Hyrule with the Zonai, and a whole lot of time travel stuff.
Basically, unless we get Yoshiaki Koizumi or somebody like him, then you won't get more games like Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask. Except he's busy with Mario.
@Arkana @beardalaxy @xianc78 I see, then Hidemaro Fujibayashi goes on my shit-list 
@beardalaxy Ocarina of Time's coming of age story wasn't even good because Link was put to sleep for seven years. From his perspective, growing up was instant when he pulled the Master Sword. And that's when the Zelda series really prioritized story over gameplay.
I have a theory that the decision to make Zelda more story driven during the N64 era was made to make up for all the RPG devs moving to the Playstation and Zelda being the closest thing Nintendo had to an RPG (excluding MOTHER and Fire Emblem which only one is a traditional RPG). They probably felt that they needed a more story driven Zelda to compete with the likes of Final Fantasy.
I also remember hearing about how the development of the cancelled Earthbound 64 had influenced the development of OOT. Itoi's talent at unique storytelling had some impact on Miyamoto, and he didn't want his games to look weak in comparison so he decided to make OOT more story driven. If you played both Mother 3 and OOT you will notice that both games are coming of age stories that span multiple years, so there is probably a connection there.
Majora's Mask is probably the only 3D Zelda game I truly love because the story is unfolded as you do more sidequests. You are not experiencing the story, you are dropped in the middle of it and it's up to you to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
The walls-of-text-ification of Zelda happened in LttP, it was already a bridge too far by the time OoT had come out. I think the striking closer to the heart of the problem is that they aspired to have the cutscenes that drag on first and foremost, struck gold, and kept making it worse with every passing game. Any of the winners that came post-OoT (MM, TP) were either accidents or winners in spite of the fact.
I'm making it a personal goal of mine to play every Zelda game in chronological order to become the authority on why my favorite video games are better than yours, but that's gonna take a while.
@xianc78 ocarina of time is a coming of age story, but imo it's done in a pretty unique way where instead of the part where you slowly grow up, it is all thrust upon link very quickly and he still has the opportunity to go back to where that wasn't the case to change things about the future with the knowledge he later gains. it's pretty interesting, it's a coming of age story but in a bit more of a somber, dark way.
TotK spoilers, rant
@beardalaxy @xianc78
I cannot get over how stupid the story is.
To say, that this Link has a brain damage won't cover it, because the same excuse wouldn't work even for Goku in this situation. And he has a confirmed brain damage.
Link literally has a memory of Zelda turning to a dragon with the master sword. Then, he climbs exactly the same fragon, and claims the sword. He also saw, that Ganandorf can make a fake Zelda.
And even after that, when he sees the fake zelda giving the most irrational orders, and leading him directly to one trap after another..... He doesn't know the fake Zelda is fake.
I cannot imagine, just how stupid he is.
TotK spoilers, rant
@LukeAlmighty @xianc78 yeah that's another issue too, it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief, knowing that's just a video game. They missed some serious opportunities to make some really heavy hitting story moments. Can you imagine seeing Link cry after pulling the master sword from the light dragon? With the main theme playing in the background? That would have been incredible.
Instead, we get really fucking fun and innovative gameplay. That's always been Nintendo's focus of course, but the story is still a massive letdown. Even smash bros has a better story.
TotK spoilers, rant
@beardalaxy @xianc78
I think, the story was great on paper, and would be amazing.... if I skipped the memories.
They literally spoil both of the main plot twists for no serious reason.
TotK spoilers, rant
@beardalaxy @xianc78
Well, fuck....
Did That single quest seriously spoil the entire fucking game?
The more ai thing about it, the fucking dragon tears absolutely ruined the story for me.
Did they add them t the last moment, not realizing they just fucked up the entire rest of the game?
TotK spoilers, rant
@LukeAlmighty @xianc78 I think they just got stuck doing the same thing, honestly. They didn't change the story structure at all.
re: TotK spoilers, rant
It is mentioned, once. If you complete every single shrine you get told some random zonai was the hero who fought Calamity Ganon 10,000 years ago, not a Link. Just disrespectfully shoving the writer's super cool new mary sue race into everything.
re: TotK spoilers, rant
@galena @xianc78 what do you define as a "link?" because the only link who is a direct descendent of another link is twilight princess, at least as far as we know. wind waker link is just some random ass kid. i can totally see a zonai guy being the hero for that time period. doesn't have to be someone named link, doesn't even have to be someone wearing the traditional green hat and tunic because botw and totk link sure as shit don't do that. "link" is only even named "link" in the latest two games because he's supposed to be a stand-in for the player, where you choose his name. that's why all of the lore refers to him as "the hero of X" instead of "x era's link."
other than that though, that's such a small stupid little thing that we pretty much already knew in the first place. like the dude is just straight up on the mural that gets shown to you in botw lol of course there was a hero that fought him and sure, whatever, he was a zonai.
i wish they could have done some time travel shit but instead of going back to the "founding of hyrule" they just went back to that war 10,000 years ago and explained how all of that went down, and then link could have another meaningful connection with another hero instead of another king of hyrule.
re: TotK spoilers, rant
@beardalaxy @galena Speaking of which, if you have a series that spans multiple eras, why not have games with different characters entirely instead of different incarnations and descendants of the same hero? It would keep the series fresh and allow more world-building. Really, I feel like the series would be much better if:
1. It was about a single hero and his many adventures
2. It was about a single setting (or multiple settings) with unique stories, each with their own characters and with recurring themes that connect the stories together
as opposed to what we actually have because the Zelda is really about three souls bounded by a curse, destined to repeat the same story with slight variation. Granted, the adult timeline supposedly breaks this cycle because the Spirit of the Hero was sent back into the past, but still.
re: TotK spoilers, rant
re: TotK spoilers, rant
@ArdainianRight @beardalaxy @galena It still could've been an opportunity to break free from the story formula and introduce new, original conflicts.
I also feel like there being "lore" is kinda antithetical to the concept, it's the *Legend* of Zelda, I always took that to mean that every game is just the same story being told from a different "narrator" who may embellish details and use artist license (except Majora's Mask, I always interpreted that as a dark fairy tale). That's why sometimes the worlds flooded, sometimes there's shadow people, sometimes it's in the sky, etc.
Anyway, my favorite Zelda game is the one where you're a wolf...
@Indigo
>I also feel like there being "lore" is kinda antithetical to the concept, it's the *Legend* of Zelda, I always took that to mean that every game is just the same story being told from a different "narrator" who may embellish details and use artist license
Not really. As convoluted as the Zelda lore is. It's been explicitly clear that some games take place before and after others (Zelda II taking place after Zelda I, OOT taking place before ALTTP, etc). The "legend" part could explain all the plot holes however.
That's why Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass being sequels to Wind Waker but not having much to do with anything else still flies, those are part of the Wind Waker "legend" that were added on later.
I know there is technically a "timeline" that splits because of the time travel nonsense in Ocarina, but I always interpreted that as Nintendo throwing a bone out to make fanboys shut up, ironically having the opposite effect.
Granted, I'm the type of person who doesn't tend to care about what's "cannon" when I'm playing video games about fictional fantasy worlds. Same reason I consider all the Dark Souls games to effectively be their own universe; and consider Fallout 1,2, and New Vegas to be one universe and Todd's weird fanfiction a different one.
@Indigo Well the story and lore is hard to just ignore because the newer games prioritize it's half-baked story over gameplay. It's why I feel like some charm was lost after OOT.
@xianc78 dude I hated Zelda games around Skyward Sword when they 1) made a “””real””” timeline where some games only “”happen””” if Link “”fails”” in a previous game. It was so stupid and killed the series for me (I didn’t even play BotW until recently, I was so incensed).
all that was to validate their prequel where the Master Sword has a cringy character inside it (the Solo Star Wars movie did this too, by putting the brain of a loud mouthed, activist, feminist robot into the fans’ beloved Millennium Falcon, ruining all its previous appearances)
And 3) they invalidate Ganon as a villain by making him some genetic offspring of a generic Satan demon villain instead of some reoccurring soul reincarnated cursed with the Triforce of Power.
The idea that Ganon used a power not inherently evil, left behind by the goddesses at the point they left the world, was poignant. The Triforce pieces by itself practically finds the soul that most embodies its essence, and the lone man of the Gerudo embodies power and ambition and wholly. Only when all three are unified is balance restored. They threw away all of that with the demonic heredity of “”Demise””, and now Ganon is some annoying bitch of a true evil instead of THE true evil himself.