look loli culture is weird af and you'll never catch me on some sus shit.
that said, lolicons are oppressed. I'd even go as far to say they are the new gamers of our generation 😂
@carlosruzu don't you mean *pedophiles?
Or are you denying that lolicons have pedophilic tendencies?
**Not that I'm siding with the "oppressors" here, I'm just trying to be truthful.
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 There are lots of lolicons that admit to being pedos, we just get banned a lot
>horrififc actions
99% of us have done nothing
99% of that is just bias. Giant sample with a handful of occurrences makes you think it's a regular thing
@applejack @Aldo2 the heck do you even mean by this? Do you not think that liking kids is bad? If your point is that most lolicons aren't pedos, thats literally my exact stance
Having an attraction to those younger than oneself (this includes being attracted to teen/pre-teen children) is neither good, nor bad. In fact, you could say it's natural.
If pedo = child-rapist/abuser, then yeah (and there are definitely some who seem to have made it their goal for these two things to be made synonymous). But, obv, that is a wholly simplistic understanding.
I myself have come a long way.
I'd argue that many lolicons (#notall, maybe not absolute majority, but a sizeable chunk) are in denial or terrified of their "secret" getting out. And they're terrified because, to them, having any pedophilic tendency at all, no matter how benign, (for example, thinking, "wow, that 13 year old is attractive") means that they are a rapist-murderer.
@Aldo2 @applejack you could make the argument that its neither good or bad for their to be an attraction (although imo, its def not good). However, there's no ethical situation, regardless of who's in the wrong, where an adult can consensually have sex with a child.
In regards to lolicons, as established in the other thread with Beard, that main thing that seperates them from pedos is they themselves seperating what they are attracted to from realistic depictions of children, a lot of them just not being hard for that shit once its too realistic. Its a shame because like you said, a good amount of them are in denial/secretive due to social presssure that was in place to prevent any sexual attraction to minors to prevent pedos
> There’s no ethical situation
I don’t mean to be...That lolbert retard guy....But...What if the child consents/initiates?
That is THE ethical situation...
*And I’d just like to reiterate, obv not every child is as “developed” as each other. The point is, there are definitely, verifiably some who do understand these “adult” concepts, sometimes better than actual adults.
@Aldo2 @applejack in theory yeah this should work but the issue is that we don't have a verifiable way to know that these mfs know what they are doing as in being able to go into their mind and be like "ok they can consent". Hell, as you know I'm of the idea that kids don't even have any sexuality (specifically peeps below 13) so how tf do you allow this realistically? Its like the situation of a drunk woman approaching you, clearly sloppily and then regretting it in the morning, only this time, you can't tell when the woman is sober or drunk. At that point, its better to wait for her to be in a situation where she can't be drunk before you advance, like how society has the age of consent as a guideline of "ok this person can actually understand the nuance of consent"
I mean, I’ve been approached by drunk women/girls before, but never continued on, because I am a retard and very shy in person. Guess I dodged those rape allegations, eh?
It’s part of the reason I’m more for fostering a better understanding of how children mature (and, the assumption is that, with that understanding, a better way of dealing with those sorts of relationships is possible, rather than just jail time for the adult and psychological abuse - represented by hours and hours of “counselling” every week - for the child), instead of rambling about how the AOC should be 0.
If there was an understanding, then it wouldn’t be so alien to propose that, hey this adult and this “underage” person are actually in a benign relationship, and while such a relationship is not the norm, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
There are cases of this happening in the relatively recent past, wherein it was determined that there was no abuse, and that both parties reciprocated each other’s affection.
@Aldo2 @applejack yeah those rape allegations would have been awful to deal with, especially with #metoo. that said, that does sound alright in theory. the main thing is determing the ability of the person to consent. I think there will always be a need for an AoC, imo for the foreseeable future one around 16 as at some point if your eight year old is approaching dudes, we got bigger issues lmao
There was a link that someone from another instance (Anime.Web?) posted a while back to this series of interviews a person did with people who were in pedophilic relationships, and, essentially the majority of the women at least (there was a section on homosexual pedophilic relationships, but that’s not me, so) said that while there was nothing wrong with their relationship, they still wouldn’t want the AOC removed (the most some were willing to go was lowering it to like 14 or 15, which some countries in Europe already have done).
They acknowledged that they were a minority, and obv not every child is the same. Still, it made for a very interesting read.
Of course, many pedos were citing that and saying it was evidence that the AOC should not exist, and/or that adult-child relationships should be legalized, but clearly they didn’t actually read the thing.
@Aldo2 @carlosruzu But they're still part of the same culture, they have the same beliefs as anyone else, it's more about their experiences
People vastly overestimate the effects, don't know it was the norm historically, and underestimate the benefits
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9670820/
>Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE. Self-reported reactions to and effects from CSA indicated that negative effects were neither pervasive nor typically intense, and that men reacted much less negatively than women. The college data were completely consistent with data from national samples. Basic beliefs about CSA in the general population were not supported.
@Aldo2 @carlosruzu Also keep in mind "CSA" here as they're talking about is better described as "sexual experiences without rape"
They also talk about how difficult it is to even talk about this because people want to put consensual and non-consensual relationships in the same pot or you're a pedoenabler "IT'S ALWAYS RAPE!" so you need to use terms like "CSA"
This is where the “statutory rape is ok” crowd come in, and proceed to muddy the waters even more than they already are...
@Aldo2 @carlosruzu "Statutory rape" is okay. It's a legal (a statute) not a moral concept. Make it not illegal and it stops existing
Even if you want to argue that it's a good general policy, that's separate from it being categorically immoral
Even if it was a good baseline, it's never black and white, you get exceptions, so unless you want to NPC brain and go "breaking the law is immoral", there's no legitimate case to call it immoral
@applejack @carlosruzu I’m not saying it’s immoral. I’m inclined to agree with you more than disagree. I’m just saying there are better ways to argue the point.
@applejack @Aldo2 statutory rape isn't just "ok", it very much varies. At best, it can be ok if you found someone able to conceive the idea of consent, but there's no verifiable way to find that out about someone below the age of consent. You want the benefits of being like "it's a murky water" without dealing with the consequences of cleaning it out. The point of concepts like consent and statutory rape is provide as many societal gatekeeps to sexual abuse without being overly retarded about it. You can't dismiss statutory rape without trying to find another to confirm this person, possibly 12 year old as you yourself implied, can consent. Otherwise it's still clearly something we still need
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 >conceive the idea of consent
People know the concept of "yes" and "no" even before they can talk. Sex as a concept and it's consequences aren't difficult either
>there's no verifiable way to find that out about someone below the age of consent
If there's no metric for it, by what measure did anyone decide what the AOC should be in the first place?
@applejack @Aldo2 >People know the concept of "yes" and "no" even before they can talk. Sex as a concept and it's consequences aren't difficult either
By this logic, it's perfectly ok to advance on and fuck a blackout drunk woman. Explain further
>If there's no metric for it, by what measure did anyone decide what the AOC should be in the first place?
Generally an age of which it was common for people to start being curious and trying sexual interactions out willingly. Main reason why I'm not the most erratic, although not completely supportive, of a aoc around 16, because by that point, it's common you're starting to try and do shit yourself. There's an argument to be made you don't quite know the full effects of what you're doing so it's still murky but we know by this point that it's not abnormal for a 16 year old to have sexual wants
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 Yeah, I'd say that's "fine". If she willingly gets drunk in a public setting and then willingly says yes, that's her responsibility. Make your bed and lie in it
That's made up. You know full well people didn't start getting sexual at 18. You should know that's bullshit
In 1880 in the US it was 7-12 too, puberty age, and that wasn't the reason it was raised
>you don't quite know the full effects of what you're doing
Nobody knows what they're doing, and some people much less than others. Look at blacks where 70% of children are born out of wedlock and half of black women have herpes
It makes 20x more sense to restrict them than 15yo Whites that want to start families
@applejack @Aldo2 first, could you please explain why her consent counts? Is there any situation by your standards that counts as rape? Also, saying "no one knows everything" is a dog shit excuse. Massive leap in judgement to compare something like even wedlock to pedophilia to the point where you had to make it sound like you're talking about 2 fifteen year olds, when you know my concern is about specifically an adult and a child fucking
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 They're not responsible enough to blindly do what they want, but they do still have genuine sexual or romantic feelings, and that can still be expressed healthily in a marriage
>Consistent with our findings, masturbation has been reported to start in most children before 2 years of age
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47718104_Infantile_and_early_childhood_masturbation_Sex_hormones_and_clinical_profile
@applejack @Aldo2 what you call masturbation is clearly just sexual substances at work without the child knowing how any of those work and what not. That's not even getting into the fact that the child can't fucking speak at this age. go on, how do people consent with a person unable to speak?
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 What does any of that mean? "sexual substances at work", what?
>go on, how do people consent with a person unable to speak?
Well, they'd cry if they were unhappy, and they'd laugh and smile if they were having fun. Not really saying you should fuck 2yos, but this isn't a good argument regardless
@applejack @Aldo2 >What does any of that mean? "sexual substances at work", what?
It seems as if the article's definition of masturbation isn't based on if the kids were willing to do it but rather dependent on which and what hormones and chemicals are in their body. By this and the "children can cry or smile" shit you're implying that "it isn't rape is she enjoyed it" is actually true, am I wrong?
All children underwent basic laboratory investigations prior to referral. Other tests included electroencephalography (n=8) and brain neuroimaging (n=9). We measured dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, free testosterone, estradiol, dehydroepiandrosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and androstenedione in all participants. The median age at the first incident was 19.5 months (range, 4-36 months); the median masturbation frequency, 4 times/day; and the median duration of each event, 3.9 min. The subjects masturbated in both prone (n=10) and supine positions (n=3); two subjects used the knee-chest position. All subjects showed facial flushing; 6, friction between the thighs; 5, sweating; 9, sleeping after the event; and 12, disturbance on interruption. EEG was abnormal in one of eight subjects tested, and neuroimages were normal in all of nine subjects examined. The case and control groups had comparable levels of all sex hormones, except estradiol, which showed significantly lower levels in the case group (P=.02). Masturbation in children seems to be associated with reduced estradiol levels, but not with other sex hormones. Further studies are needed to confirm our findings.
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 What? Are you retarded? Masturbation means masturbation, they're looking at how that's related to hormones
@applejack @Aldo2 "masturbation is masturbation" not in a context where even by their metrics, the shit lasts for less than 5 minutes, being done by human beings who literally cannot survive in their own because they don't know what they are doing.
Even if I accept that children masturbate, by that standard again, you're implying that you agree with the sentiment "It isn't rape if she enjoys it" Please let me know that you mean something else, please
@carlosruzu @applejack bruh, when I first learned how to jack it, it was like 10 minutes of “what the fuck is this, how does this work?” Followed by like 1hr in the nearest cubicle.
@Aldo2 @applejack something you chose to actively explore. Can you say the same for a child experiencing what's essentially hormone changes?
No, I can't, really.
But I can say in that my personal case, I'm a late bloomer, so, in reality, everyone else was doing this shit years before me (i.e. before they were 10 years old).
So you're retarded, got it
@carlosruzu @Aldo2 There is nothing wrong or unnatural with being a pedophile
Girls are fertile at 12 (and there are advantages to planning ahead and picking younger), average age of marriage was 12-16 historically, in 1880 the AOC in the US was 7-12, studies that look at CSE and control for SES and actual cases of rape don't find long term harm, even in this society
@wowaname @Aldo2 @carlosruzu And I already defended it
If link isn't useable, just view my newest posts
https://gameliberty.club/web/statuses/107926327647526022
@wowaname @Aldo2 @carlosruzu Nobody here at any point said abuse is okay
CSE = child sexual experience
AOC = age of consent
SES = socio-economic status
US = united states
I don't think these are that uncommon or undecipherable within context
>I don't think these are that uncommon
i dont live and breathe paedophilia or socialism
@wowaname @Aldo2 @carlosruzu I get the argument but also kinda disagree
It's more "noisy" in one way but it's also less word noise since it's just fewer words, and these distinct concepts are wrapped together. I find it harder to parse if 5 words is actually just one concept
In Icelandic we make distinct concepts like this into compound words instead
Instead of "united states" we have bandaríkin, which solves all problems, but English doesn't like doing that
@wowaname @Aldo2 @carlosruzu If you want to join a random discussion *other people* are having, don't say "I'm not reading all that" or "I don't know what these words mean", just go do something else
@wowaname @Aldo2 @carlosruzu I said "and control for SES and actual cases of rape", literally, if you *exclude* rape, there's no long term harm
You somehow thought I was talking about rape
This is a you problem
@applejack @wowaname @Aldo2 tbf I could say the same about you posting cope in here with terms no mentally sane person knows
@applejack @wowaname @carlosruzu I’m just gonna day I didn’t know what SES stood for...
@applejack @wowaname @Aldo2 dawg who unironically says ses in a Convo, my brother in Christ not even the Marxists I've met are that much of a bruh moment
@Aldo2 funnily enough more often that not, its the antis you have to worry about. Usually actual pedos won't actually come clean and honest about them being, well pedos, so they will do anything to downplay their horrififc actions and whatnot.
Not only does this completely contrast the nature of most lolicons, as they tend to be unabashedly for lolis and whatnot, this also describes the loli harpers more often than not. Thus why it checks out whenever the people that harp about lolicons being pedos actually tend to be outed as pedos themselves, kinda like those mfs that harp about lgbtq laws being in the closet