LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche
I don't get it. Why do all the open source fanboys LOVE to live in a perpetual state of denial? No matter how many times you explain the difficulty of using their stuff, instead of trying to figure out how to decrease it, they will spend their time just arguing that it's better that way.

(triggered by your comments on xmpp and my perpetual fight to learn the BASICS of how to use Linux.)

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty They're ideologues. They're like communists, Nazis, or libertarians. Richard Stallman has programmed a software ideology into them that they don't recognize as an ideology. They regard it as fact. You can't debate it because it's just reality, at least to them.

So they bring up how their preferred thing is FOSS and yours isn't and they sincerely think that the debate basically ends there. It doesn't have to actually work as long as their shit is FOSS and your shit isn't.

This, coming from someone who likes Linux and a lot of FOSS shit. In a lot of ways I prefer Linux to Windows but there are just so many compatibility issues that it's often not worth it. But that just won't register as an actual issue, either.
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche
I just cannot get over that unbelievably complicated file system...

But I'm working on it.

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty The thing with loonix in general is that, from a mathematical perspective, a great deal of it is legitimately simpler than windoze, look from a human cognitive perspective the exact opposite is true.

A great example of this is the file system as you say. Except it's not really the file system itself, it's actually the way they organize the files in the system. That's what I imagine is the issue for you. I bet you're thinking things like: "where is the configuration file for this program I installed? What are the settings I can change in it that aren't listed in there by default? How do I get it to reload this file without rebooting the entire fucking box?" And so on.

Am I right?
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche
> where is the configuration file

Yeah... that would be also good. But my favorite question is more like l: What disk is this file even on?

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED

@LukeAlmighty df -h

“I bet you feel stupid now for not just knowing that off the top of your head huh? :anintellectual:”

No but seriously I sincerely expect Linux spergs to really want you to “just know” these commands even though that isn’t how this works at all

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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty i mean that's why there's --help options for every command
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@lina @LukeAlmighty that's only helpful if you know which command to run in the first place
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty yeah but i'm trying to point out that only absolute retards would expect people to know all relevant commands by heart when the very people that make them make sure there's a way for you to at least figure it out if you never ran it before or if you forgot what it does
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@lina @NEETzsche
Man is about as instructive to average user as dripping an apple is descriptive of gravitational mechanics.

If you know, it might seem obvious, but if you don't know, it's just a falling apple, not a measurable example of applied force that is constant, and applies to objects outside of the atmosphere with wildly different results...

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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche that's why i don't use man :D:
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@lina @LukeAlmighty I do :anintellectual:

Lots of hidden nuggets in those man files. But I'm also a tech sperg. I'm not going to try to tell some guy who trades stocks for a living to bother with this shit
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty yeah, but mostly all you need to learn is how sudo works, how your package manager works and how nano works if you're using something simple like ubuntu
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@lina @LukeAlmighty imagine not using emacs smh
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty sudo rm /usr/bin/emacs
sudo ln -s /usr/bin/nano /usr/bin/emacs
jokes aside, people should consider that not everyone is a turbocoder sperg that needs macros or programmability or some lisp related bullshit and nano is a good command line text editor that doesn't require looking up how to fucking close it lmao
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche a couple of nano's keybinds always annoyed me - M-u for undo. had it all setup to be like the standard notepad keybinds back when i used it
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche yea, or ctrl+x instead of ctrl+c to close it, but i think as long as you figure out that ^ means you hold ctrl, you'll be fine with it
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche i rebound copy to C-c and paste to C-v and cut-line to C-k and it was comfy asf

then my terminal not supporting C-Backspace properly annoyed me so i wrote my own editor
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche :chadyuugi: schizopilled
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche look, having to reach for M-backspace is REALLY annoying after a while. you gotta do what you gotta do
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche i don't know what M-backspace does :Chad:
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche i had it set to 'delete last word' like windows has C-backspace, because xterm doesnt register C-backspace correctly no matter how many commands i run and configs i change
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche oh i just set up key repeat speed to be 75 and that's good enough for me, although still lags when it comes to js laced shit like pleroma
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche lol fair

anyway USE NOTPAD: THE ONLY TEXT EDITOR WITH A FEMBOY MASCOT AND BUILT IN BIBLE SUPPORT

was honestly really fun writing my own text editor. i shelled out and used a widget library (tcl/tk) but like! it was nice! it was fun! its pretty damn lightweight too, smaller than all of those rust gui editors that everyone's cooming about
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche i dont want femboy mascots, i like girls
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche ok but id still reccomend writing your own editor if youre as much as a sperg as me who will try and do things that're impossible in existing software and get mad because theyre impossible
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche i'm not, i use linux because i don't want my computer to reboot without my consent and because i'm too broke for windows and microsoft stink after they made windows 8
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche thats fair :D

i use linux because i have autism and windows drives me insane
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@errante @lina @NEETzsche
I am trying to switch, because I am tired of: "Well, out middle manager number 35 decided, that average user likes candy crush, so we installed it to your PC without asking."

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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@LukeAlmighty @lina @NEETzsche good luck!
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@errante @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche mint's a great choice if you're moving from windows, the cinnamon DE was pretty much a carbon copy of windows' UI last time i used it (that was like 2016)
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@lina @NEETzsche @errante
No...
NO...
They are not the same, AND the average programmer isn't shaking from even thinking about linux because the task bar is on the left instead of down.

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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche @errante huh? you're thinking of old ubuntu aren't you?
mint with cinnamon has the taskbar on the bottom, like it should be
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿
Follow

@lina @NEETzsche @errante
I am talking about the stupid "Distro x is pretty much a windows copy" line.

And yes, obviously I was referring the old ubuntu. But the UI is the least important part of the jumping OS.

· · Husky · 2 · 0 · 2
Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche @errante idk bro, if you're gonna get your grandma for example to use linux instead of windows, you'd be more concerned about making sure she won't be confused just because the UI is different
obviously there are differences like using the command line to install everything as opposed to GUI installers, but that's something you get used to, especially when mint and ubuntu feature a GUI shell for apt i believe
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@lina @NEETzsche @errante
You don't need the command line to install shit. That is a solved issue, since there are programs for installing programs.

But also, I am not a grandma. I need to actually use the system, not just start firefox and open e-mail.

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty @lina @errante Command lines are based and if you're going to learn Linux you're doing yourself a disservice by not learning the CLI (command line interface) and various TUIs like tmux and WeeChat etc. I know this sounds dismissive but source: dude trust me
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@NEETzsche @lina @LukeAlmighty i never liked session managers like tmux. you have a window manager to manage terminal sessions, why not use it? (a: the window manager isnt good at it)

i also found weechat annoying to use, but i guess its because i was used to a different IRC client
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@errante @lina @LukeAlmighty TUIs have a high learning curve but once you "get it" and you accomplish something rather sophisticated with a few keystrokes instead of half a minute of clicking, something happens in the mind. It "registers" and it's like a eureka moment.
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@NEETzsche @lina @LukeAlmighty i know, im a tui user :)

i just dont like weechat! it felt cramped and extra
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty @lina i still think we can do better than the current tuis - vt100 sucks ass
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche @lina yall should check out arcan :D its a cool project
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@errante @lina @NEETzsche
Witchcraft

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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@LukeAlmighty @lina @NEETzsche its awesome yea
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche @lina @errante
Dude, I don't mind using command line.
I grew up on Dos. I know how to write shit.

The problem is deeper. And file system is the best example. You can read commands all day, or use the GUI, but nothing will help, if you don't even know what fucking disk you're on.

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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche @lina @errante
It is this kind of fundamental restructuring of basic logic, that makes Linux into a fucking nightmare. Not some shit like mouse cursor being gray instead of white, or tracert being called traceroute.

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty @lina @errante Here's where the conversation gets... difficult. What even qualifies as "basic logic" varies from operating system to the next. For example, mount points being arbitrary isn't some fundamental defiance of logic. Drive letters are even more arbitrary, and I can think of some reasons to want to assign mount point based on drive ID rather than rely on Windows' automatic drive letter assignment. For example, what if you have a cron job that runs a script stored on an external drive? The path must be consistent.
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Corfiot
Basic logic is indeed very arbitrary. People are comfortable with what they know. An example of this: can you boot windows without a C: drive? How uncomfortable would people be if they can't find a C: drive in windows nowadays? I bet anyone under 25 would not even notice. I'd freak out.

New OS's are supposed to solve problems in new ways, otherwise why exist, beyond ideology?
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@corfiot @lina @LukeAlmighty @NEETzsche we have not had a truly new OS in at least a decade
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche @lina @errante
Yeah, sure. I am sure it is amazing once you get to use it.

I am just trying to explain, why the old line of "this distro is just like windows" or "you just have to learn to use the terminal" are based on an absolute misunderstanding of just how deep the gap of understanding can really be.

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty @lina @errante Oh that line is ridiculous and should be disregarded out of hand. I totally understand that.
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FourOh-LLC
I installed my first Slackware on a 386 from 360kb floppies, in 1994 - before Windows 95 was a thing. I played Doom on Slackware as soon as Id released it to Linux.

I never wrote a shell-script, I use Webmin since it was a thing. No, I never spent a minute with learning Perl. I know a little SQL, have some mediocre skills with curly bracket syntax, but I am the dumbest Linux user.

Thanks to Webmin I manage DNS, LDAP, and other internet infrastructure pieces like a champ. Thanks to YunoHost I have a fully RFC-compliant user-space stack as well. I mastered virtualization - kernel and file based, Type I and Type II. yada yada...

Linux is not a nightmare, you just need to find a way to plug into its ecosystem. The best way is to find a fitting and fundamental purpose for it - which could be a database server, for example.

Check out phpMyAdmin, Web2Py, Saltcorn. These are excellent, very-low barrier entry points to some serious utility.
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Shari Vegas :windmill_of_friendship: :1488:
@NEETzsche @lina @LukeAlmighty @errante neet's right. All of this is like the exercise of learning algebra in high school: It'll pay dividends in strange situations you never expected to find yourself in, in the future.
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty @lina @errante I just got done bitching about people who refuse to make FOSS shit actually work, now let me go in the opposite direction and bitch about normies who refuse to adapt even a little bit:

Linux is not Windows. Linux shouldn't endeavor to be Windows. If you want to use Windows, just use Windows. Every non-Windows operating system dev shouldn't feel obligated to make things feel like Windows. Fuck Windows-esque distros.
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Final:z:Badguy:shrussia:
@NEETzsche @LukeAlmighty @errante i will still install xfce4 and set it up to look like windows :Chad:
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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@lina @LukeAlmighty @errante I just use every operating system with no apology. And by "every operating system" I mean Linux and Windows.
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errante fµnk :verifiedpedophile:
@NEETzsche @lina @LukeAlmighty glenda is disappointed in you
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LukeAlmighty 🇨🇿

@NEETzsche @lina @errante
There are no windows-esk distros though :alexjonessmile2:

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Dr. NEETzsche, GED
@LukeAlmighty @lina @errante There are plenty that try lol, and so far they all sucked
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