@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
There are no christians in foxholes
Lol, well, dunno about that.
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
The argument of "there are no atheists in foxholes" is just retarded. Yes, people, who are afraid of death pray. Of course they pray, when they KNOW, that they will never again feel the wind. They will never again taste a food. They will NEVER talk to their loved ones and obviously, at that point, you will beg anyone including beings you don't believe in, just to find a way to avoid it.
But, all of that is rooted in fear of death. Something, that by the same level of pub logic, no christian should be afraid to begin with.
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
Nah.
Fear of death is real. Who would have thought? 🤷♂️ But fear of death is hardly a proof of God.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
Under that kind of stress, most people are willing to trust in anything. Literally anything, if there is a .001% chance it might save their ass.
I seriously fail to see, how the fact, that you can break people is some gatcha for you.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
> hail Mary bro science bullshit instead
I agree here also. An atheist who prays has just revealed a lack of belief in atheism, or at least, a lack of sufficiency in atheism to deal with what he faces.
Then again, is anyone really an atheist? "No proof of God" cuts both ways: you cannot prove God, but you also have no ability to disprove him (no falsifiable thesis).
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
> Then again, is anyone really an atheist?
Yes. The belief in god is a positive belief.
I am not saying, that I have a proof that he doesn't exist with 100% certainty. I am atheis BECAUSE I don't have a reason to believe he does.
But that is different from claiming the oposite as a certainty. Some atheists do that, but I absolutely don't see it as a requirement.
And I refuse to use the word "agnostic", because at that point, we're getting into a politics levels of pseudo definitions.
I disagree heartily. Agnosticism accepts that the physical is not going to prove or disprove the metaphysical.
Atheism is a positive believe in the nonexistence of God.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
Then your definition is insane 
My definition is logically consistent and you will hear it frequently among those most successful at studying these issues.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
Of course, that you can be "successful", when arguing a strawman. But afirst step of an argument is always to talk about the same topic.
And just as I refuse to accept 69 genders on a fundamental level, I will not give up the label of an atheist just because you decided to make the definition isnane.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
I will ignore for now, that you thought I will be stupid enough to fall for appeal of authority, but please, keep the conversation on some level of dignity.
This was just pathetic.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter @NEETzsche
But, what is worse is, that you believe, that you can define, what my argument is, before you attack it.
Not only is it a strawman, but it is a strawmen with a request to accept it from my side.
I seriously cannot believe you tried something so postmodern.
I think you misunderstand appeal to authority, among other things.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any god. You can break it down by etymology: a(without)theist(god). We can go into Leddit distinctions between different kinds of atheists, like those who positively assert the non-existence of gods vs those who are merely skeptical enough of them to not think they're real given the information they have, but I don't think it's really germane to this conversation, beyond this point:
The conversation is what does foxhole prayer entail. I don't think it entails the existence of God. I do think it's an indicator that the atheist in question is not very confident in their atheism, that they become pliant to theism in dire circumstance. It's a statement on the personality and views of the person foxhole praying. It's not a statement on external, objective reality. Quite a few believers lose their faith given hardship or the fear of imminent death. This is a two way street.
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
Well said.
From my side, I believe, that the christian belief in God is deeply rooted in the fear of inevitable death. Therefore, someone breaking in the foxhole is completely natural and just confirms the nature of christian belief.
I also think, that most christians live already "broken" by fear of death for their entire lifes.
But also, I don't see people trying everything including a prayer in such an extreme situation as them in fact being sure, that God DOES exist. That is a huge jump in logic.
The promise of a heavenly afterlife can certainly be construed as being motivated by fear of death, and it can also be construed as a threat considering most branches of Christianity menace disbelievers with hell. However, this isn't very satisfying, because the Christian narratives (varying by denomination) have quite a bit more meat to them than just being scared of death and Jebus comes to CTR+Z you unaliving. If it revolved around merely being afraid of death, one would construct a religion that promises universal salvation with no other theological ideas, and while some branches of Christianity do promise universal salvation, most do not, and as far as I'm aware, even the ones that do, have quite a few other theological ideas alongside that one.
Just off the top of my head, Christianity has elaborate scripture on creation, eschatology, ethics, history, and philosophy. There's complex narratives to support all of the above, which I will spare you in this thread. And that's just going by sola scriptura, without getting into things like the traditions of Orthodoxy or the extrabiblical scriptures such as the Gnostic or Mormons, which expound upon a lot of these topics in even greater detail.
Trying to reduce Christianity down to "they're simply afraid of death" just, isn't really correct. Even if you think it's ultimately bullshit.
@NEETzsche @amerika @Mr_NutterButter
Sure, there is a lot of philosophy, that I LOVE about christian thought.
But fear of death is the entire premise of "no atheists in foxholes."
For me, "sola fide" is the only sensible argument.
Christianity:Judaism::Hinduism:Buddhism IMHO.
The point is to have a clear mental state.
Faith only comes from the beginnings of this mental state... it is esoteric like everything else.
I agree and would add: I do not trust people who believe out of fear.
That means self-interest.
Actual spiritual events would be more of a nature of awe, reverence, being struck by beauty, insight, epiphany, etc.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter
So, do you believe, that atheism is a positive belief in absense of God, or that it is a lack of belief in his existence?
You cannot argue with me on this topic, and then say to @NEETzsche that you agree with the same claim.
I find this convincing. People in desperation fall back on what they see others do.
Belief in God/gods comes from a leap of faith not a leap of fear.
@amerika @Mr_NutterButter