To this day, I have no fucking idea how could Trans debate hone so insanely wrong. No matter how long I do spend on the topic, I cannot wrap my head around this madness, but the more interesting part is, just how little good faith debate there actually is on the topic.
Fuck... Even on Abortion, there is some gray zone. I do not belong to either camp, because I know, that both sides are trying to pointlessly escalate their position to push the overton window. But the base arguments are clear. But with the trans debate, I don't even know the last time I heard 2 people try to compate the baselines.
@ChristiJunior
I noticed the breaking point, when they switched from talking about "gender roles" to "gender".
They mean the same thing, and when they complained about the roles assigned to them because of their gender, that all made sense. But then, they just made the switch, and literally all of the internal logic broke.
@LukeAlmighty @ChristiJunior
The ironic part is that this same group destroyed traditional gender role definitions, and now can't stand the lack of the roles being defined - or being defined by the most toxic and insipid "role model" for that respective gender. This is further amplified by their hate of good role models, as they exhibit a positive demonstration of the traditional gender roles. There can be no good faith talk about this, as it requires Marxist conviction to be accepted.
On the question gender vs. sex. Matt Walsh (yikes) had this movie where he interviewed some respected Doctor, and she (a Jew and a conservative lol) actually argued for the difference between sex and gender: how no one can change one's sex, and how gender has become this made-up identity thing.
As for OPs point. I consider the trans movement morally nihilistic, as in they don't believe in anything, they don't have any genuine values. But everything can and will be used to push through the desired social and political changes in the service of their right to live as fake women. In the bigger picture I see it as an offshoot of Liberal ideology, and a step of the process to normalized dehumanization (freedom from.. being man/woman, being human).
@irie @ChristiJunior
Here is my point. I hate the conservative view of men. I see conservatives being proud of identifying themselves as disposable slaves on the alter of pussy, and I want to vomit.
I also hear feminists complain about being seen as a weak biological carrying pod for a breeding unit 846368. And I do see, how that would feel dehumanizing as well. Therefore, both sexes do come with an insanely negative baggage, that one would do anything to escape.
But....... Here is where I cannot bear this shit. On one hand, we have a self ID side, that decided to fucking use the same dehumanizing roles, but give you a switch button, while the other one argues for them without this magical button. So, I do understand why the troon debate is so insanely powerful driving force on both sides. But, I don't get, why is noone talking about the meta topics at all.
@LukeAlmighty @irie @ChristiJunior
I've been noticing this too. There used to be a point where liberals/progressives would argue in favor of widening how we view men and women, widening the roles and behavior that is considered normal for the sexes. Women wearing pants is a consequence of that, for example. And I was all in for that. And still am. I don't have that much of an issue with a man wearing a dress... up until they start lying about what they're doing and what they are (but I'm getting ahead of myself).
But today I feel that this approach has been eliminated. Instead, as you observe too, we're back to 2 narrow "gender" roles, with a benefit of a magic button. And as soon as you deviate even a little bit from the narrow "gender" role, you're gonna be pressured to press the magic button (and I argue that the "gender" roles are even more restrictive than they used to be, because there is something that is pressuring more and more people to press the button). It started with pressure from Tumblr, but now it's everywhere in the online sphere, it's in entertainment, it's in news media, it's in schools, it's in hospitals and mental care. I'm not sure if there's any aspect of society where you don't find this pressure to press the magic button so that your physical appearance better fits the "gender" role your personality leads you into.
If I were to meet a Hulk Hogan in his prime looking guy, in a sexy red dress, I'd obviously ask him "what's with the dress?". If he answered, in a normal male voice, "I just felt like trying this out", I wouldn't give two shits about it. I'd go "huh. ok. Have a good one." and go on with my day. That's the framework I live my life in, that allows men and women to be flexible.
But I see so many "progressives" who just at hearing such a scenario would go "well clearly this Hulk Hogan looking guy is an egg that needs cracking" (if you don't know the terminology, and "egg" is a person that needs to be "enlightened" or rather convinced that they're actually trans). And I find such an approach evil. Because these people ultimately can't help themselves but want to manipulate and change other people to fit their mental image of the world, instead of just accepting them as they are.
And then there's the people who wear the red dress who will lie to me about why they wear the dress. Liberals of old would have agreed that something as simple as a dress isn't what makes someone a woman. But today, that's what the trans movement pretends happens.
You have people who put on a long wig, some red lipstick and a dress, and then claim they're a woman because of it. No, you're not. You felt like wearing those things, because your atypical personality leads you to liking those things, and that's fine with me. If you could only be honest with me, and more importantly, with yourself, nobody would care. I don't care if you're a male that wants to live his life as a woman, as long as you're honest that this is what you're doing. But people are not honest. They lie. They start claiming that they ARE women.
Be honest with people, and be honest with yourself. If you're a feminine man, that's fine. We had reached the point where that was acceptable. We had reached the point where doubting the manliness of a feminine man was an insult. But now somehow people are back to rejecting the possibility of feminine men existing. "No, they're trans-women" says the progressive. And the insulting part is trying to affirm the manliness of a feminine man.
This has made me HATE the trans ideology with a burning passion.
@LukeAlmighty the "gray zone" is sex =/= gender.
That's it.
Conservatards can't stand that gray zone because they view sex and gender as synonymous. As with most things, they shot themselves in the foot, and now their only recourse is outright oppression (with predictable results) to try and amend the "problem".
@Aldo2
Bro...I am trying to take this conversation seriously, and you jump in with "if you believe hard enough, you might grow a dick".
I am getting to tired of your bait.
@LukeAlmighty you were literally asking for a "good faith debate" lol
Well, there's your "good faith debate".
You clearly don't want a "debate", you just want people to agree with you 100% on everything without any pushback.
Rather pathetic, tbqh.
@Aldo2
Yes. You spent last week arguing, that I should go into den of people who want me dead, and now, you want me to accept, that Trans advocates don't know how reproduction works?
Yes, I wanted a good faith debate. Not the "sex =/= gender" stuff, that was already repeated 100s of times.
@LukeAlmighty lol
Last week's argument was not at all related to this, stop deflecting.
It's not up to you what can or can't be argued in a "good faith debate", especially when you dismiss a fundamental argument of the opposition which is actually agreeable by all sides.
Sex =/= Gender.
Sex is not about gender.
Those trans people arguing in "good faith" are not saying they can give birth from their penis (if they're of biological male sex).
They're saying that they are a gender that is different to their sex. They would like people to treat them as their gender. It's really quite simple.
You can agree with that or disagree, but the position is fairly rational, all thing's considered.
Again, your argument is that everyone HAS to agree with you because no trans person can "argue in good faith". Again, it's just pathetic. Like a JK Rowling Twitter rant.
@Aldo2
Obviously last week has a ton to do with me not believing you are even able to do a good faith argument anymore.
Not to mention, that you started the debate with literally stating the most insane assertion and expectation, that I will accept it in full extent. Instead, if you even read what I wrote in this thread already, you could have noticed, that I did give a HUGE pass on the gender role question, but I seriously wouldn't expect you of all people to understand that point.
@LukeAlmighty how is it the "most insane assertion and expectation". It's something that most, if not all people agree on.
Sex is not gender. They are different words, relate to different things etc...
Again, YOU are the one who wanted a "good faith debate". But you can't even accept a basic premise of the "trans argument".
Well then, it's not "good faith" then, is it?
Your pass is that.....You didn't give it a pass?
You said you don't want to talk about it because it's been talked about 100s of times. That's not a pass, that's you avoiding it entirely because you know if you agreed to it then you'd have to change your own position.
@Aldo2
Ok, if you want to play this game:
Is this a boot, or is it a cake? Would you eat it, or would you leave it on a floor next to your other boots for a few days, and then put your foot in it and walk with it through a forrest?
@LukeAlmighty footwear can apply to women or men.
Men can wear women's footwear and vice-versa.
You used the wrong analogy.
@Aldo2
So, you would put this mixture of egg, sugar and wheat on your foot beofre going to work?
Interesting...
@LukeAlmighty you used the wrong analogy, deliberately, to make an argument against you impossible.
Of course you can't use cake as a shoe. Duh.
I used the correct analogy, to describe not only my position, but reality (i.e. shoes are not made of cake, and men can wear women's shoes and women can wear men's shoes, the shoe is gender, duh).
@Aldo2
Ok, you cannot use a cake as a shoe...
Why? It definitely looks like a shoe to me.
@LukeAlmighty notice how I said "men can wear" and "women can wear", i.e. there is a difference between SEX and GENDER.
I know this is tough for you to accept.
@Aldo2
Of course it wasn't created as a shoe, but why are you not behaving as if it were one?
@Aldo2
It doesn't want you to believe it to be a shoe. It just want's you to wear it.
@LukeAlmighty a shoe is meant to be worn.
A man can wear a woman's shoe, and a woman can wear a man's shoe.
How hard is this for you to understand?
@Aldo2
Yes. A shoe is meant to be worn, and a cake is meant to be eaten.
But what about cake, that REALLY deep down KNOWS it's a shoe?
@Aldo2
Thank you
You have no idea jist how a big of a compliment it unironically is.
Back to the topic. Will you wear the shoe?
@Aldo2
You must understand already, that the point of gender =/= sex argument means, that if you spend enough effort truly trying to look and behave as the category you don't belong in, (shoe), you should be treated as a part of that category as default.
That was your argument, not mine. I just illustrated it on a topic, where I know advanced mimicry is in fact possible.
@Aldo2
Well, you wanted to have the gender =/= sex debate, so I had it.
If sex is what you are, and gender is how you identity, and it can be different based on what you look like, then a food's sex would be food. But, it tried to look like clothing, it's gender would change to clothing.
And since we treat people based on the gender, and not sex, you would have to treat the shoe cake as a shoe. That is the entire logic of sex =/= gender.
@Aldo2
And I am seriously starting to question your legal status of self governing individual, if you can neither understand the concept of an analogy, or the concept of protecting yourself from buch of people who hate your existence.
i'd say don't waste your time and just curb stomp him
@LukeAlmighty lol
Again, you use the wrong analogy.
Sex is what you are, gender is what you identify as. It is not "different based on what you look like".
"Food" is incapable of having a sex, because food is an abstract.
More like "tomato is a fruit".
You keep making the completely wrong argument to try and buttress your position, and it keeps failing.
@Aldo2
No, you didn't even define your position, and keep on sperging out about people not accepting your unsaid definition in all the examples you believe in including all the implications you believe in, but not the logical extent.
So, once again you gave proven, that a good faith conversation with troon supporters is not possible.
@LukeAlmighty the definition is that men can wear women's shoes, and women can wear men's shoes.
Tomato is a fruit, but used as a vegetable.
How hard is this to understand, jfc.
I don't know how to make it simpler.
@LukeAlmighty you're the one who said you wanted a "good faith conversation", yet now you say that you never wanted it.
Congrats, you're a retard.
Sex is not gender. "
It is not something that most people agree with you on. You are lying to at least yourself.
That you cannot see that is why you are a complete failure.
Troons are saying that they have been fucked in the head and now we need to coddle them and lie to them so they won't feel bad.
Your argument is that everyone must agree with you because you airily dismiss reality.
What a strange thing to say.
Do you think I'm trans or something?
Just because I'm playing devil's advocate?
Lol
Why talk about "my whole belief system"?
What am I "delusional" about?
"This shit's not real"?
What?
What exactly is your point?
@Owl right, so after denying it, you DO think I'm trans, lol.
Make your mind up!
@Owl lol
At least own your insult, haha
Man, this is just pathetic.
Do you think because you think I'm trans I'm going to report you to the Feds for a hate-crime or something?
Jfc, grow a pair (pun intended).
@Owl you're the one who replied in this thread out of nowhere to try and seem tough with a HRT comment....
And you're calling me the "dork"?
Lol
Explains why you're so stupid.
@Owl hahahaha
So, if I'm not a "class snitch" and actually rebel against the mean bad teachers, then I'm a "nigger" hahaha
You're the pussy here.
Lol
More evidence that you were the "dork" in school.
